IDF phasing out Tavor and M4, in favor of locally made AR15 platform

[RabbitTeeth]

Just saw a couple of discussions on the Tavor this morning on other forums.

Link to one article here and some discussion over here.

Just thought it was weird that they justified their decision based on the Tavor being at a disadvantage in CQB.

"The Tavor is based on a bullpup mechanism, which is less common in Western armies, less suitable for operating certain restraints, and has relative disadvantages in combat in closed spaces, as we have seen in the fighting in Gaza," a senior IDF officer leading the military buildup project told Ynet.

Wtf? Isn't the whole reason for a reliable, compact bullpup that you have the advantage in CQB? A suppressed 16" Tavor is still much shorter than a suppressed 12.5" AR. My personal interpretation is that it's not a bad rifle per se, but maybe they just want to spend their finances on a locally produced AR15 platform (as opposed to the M4 that they have to buy from the Americans). Could also be a reliability thing. I don't have direct experience with it but I've read that clearing jams in the Tavor is easier than other bullpups like the Keltec RDB since the chamber is more visible, but then again, it's still more difficult than an AR.

Full disclaimer, I've been saving to pick up a X95 this year, so I'm not ####ting on the Tavor with this post. Just looking for opinions on the IDF's intent to move away from it.

 

[greentips]

It has been going on for awhile and it was announced at least two years ago, they started buy M4s again awhile ago and trying to dilute out the X95 - the old thread

https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...DF-to-replace-the-Tavor-with-M4?highlight=IDF

The border guards already got the locally made AR variant some IWI ARAD ( hence all the X95 surplus ) The SF got the SIG Spear/MCX. There are also many new M4s


individual movement around threshold is harder with a bullpup having a bulky back end and a magazine sticking out, kinda difficult to explain in words. The length of barrel is just one of many things, on top of adding things like LAD and white light.

that compactness is only useful when people insists on having 20" tubes and in the context of being mechanized and motorized all the time. These days most militaries accept 11" to 16" is enough for carbines and rifles for everyone Bullpup is not needed.

 

[Daver_II]

The advantage of a bullpups barrel is not needed in close range engagements.

It is a question of ballistics and lethality.

Simply you don't need the velocity in close quarters.... the bullet composition and target effect is much more important.

That said, short barreled weapons in 5.56 do lose their ability to reliably create lethal wound channels shockingly quickly at range.

Bullpups have their place, but they are not the answer for everything.

 

[bertn]

Maybe ergonomics of mag changes has something to do with it as well?

 

[RabbitTeeth]

It has been going on for awhile and it was announced at least two years ago, they started buy M4s again awhile ago and trying to dilute out the X95 - the old thread

https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...DF-to-replace-the-Tavor-with-M4?highlight=IDF

The border guards already got the locally made AR variant some IWI ARAD ( hence all the X95 surplus ) The SF got the SIG Spear/MCX. There are also many new M4s


individual movement around threshold is harder with a bullpup having a bulky back end and a magazine sticking out, kinda difficult to explain in words. The length of barrel is just one of many things, on top of adding things like LAD and white light.

that compactness is only useful when people insists on having 20" tubes and in the context of being mechanized and motorized all the time. These days most militaries accept 11" to 16" is enough for carbines and rifles for everyone Bullpup is not needed.

Thanks for the info. As you indicated, the pros/cons need to be weighed based on intent/purpose for using one. I might have to rethink my options for a reliable 5.56 semi-auto STANAG-mag rifle if my main goal is to join 3-gun competitions.

Maybe ergonomics of mag changes has something to do with it as well?

Possible, too. I don't have experience with bullpups other than a T97 w/ LHG that was still slow to do mag changes with, but I'm uncertain whether Tavor mag changes are slower than an AR platform? It's definitely a different manual of arms. X95 reviewers/owners claim that their mag changes are just as fast. They could be biased though.

 

[thegazelle]

Maybe ergonomics of mag changes has something to do with it as well?

It is a good point you make. I love the ergonomics and weight balance on the X95, but the ergos of swapping mags on a bullpup...I honestly don't think I will ever get accustomed to it - to me (anyways), it really feels unnatural. And it's not because I am used to the AR platform. I am sure that there are people who can swap mags fast, but I'd bet for the vast majority of average joes, it is a more awkward motion than a mag swap on an AR level firearm.

The bolt catch/release button in the back on my X95 - I have stopped using it years ago and just run the charging handle now.

 

[Ex3dy]

Interesting, I don't see a 3rd pin hole but they do mention "advanced fire control"

 

[zupermann]

IDF goes from American aid M16 variants to Galil, then sort of goes back to M16/M4, then goes to Tavor, now goes to AR again.
Somebody needs to make up their minds

 

[greentips]

Mag change is not an issue with bullpup. The fine points......

It is about bullpup naturally wants to point up and with a short barrel the muzzle may not clear someone's head naturally, so the user may need to consciously and constantly use arm muscle to raise it up and not let it point at own eye balls or someon'es eye balls in a stack, in close qtr. Iif crammed together it is so short and the COM to the back pushes the muzzle up the eye balls, even backyard to one's own face. The israelis folllow "gun up" I think.

And also the mass and mag at the back, with long LOP, take more time/effort/attention to move butt over shoulder, more about pivoting over threshold.

That's why I do not like the 13" X95. and no space for LAD and switches.

 

[armybuck041]

Mag change is not an issue with bullpup. The fine points....

A hand will always find the other hand quicker than anything else. That is something the AR will always have going for it over a bullpup. Can that be trained out. Sure. But it’s a heck of a design advantage working hand to hand.

Spent plenty of time with the SA80 and the AUG while on exchange with the UK and Australia. I never walked away from either of those experiences wanting a bullpup.

 

[lawn gnome]

I suspect that Isreal is more concerned with a home made rifle as well as a consistent source of weapons.
The on again/off again US relationships have not been encouraging.
Having a consistent platform to practice and retain skills is another huge factor in an army whee they can called back at any time even after years away.

 

[can14]

the patent is off on the Colt AR15, so you can make as many as you need
you do not need a very big place to make then because of AI and CNC machinery

 

[Ironers]

So what you are saying Israeli made Tavors are about to become collector items.

 

[Painkillers]

The x95 is heavy as ballz compared to an M4/AR15. Israel is a small country with mandatory enlistment for everyone...1/2 of those everyone are women. Fighting building to building in a place like Gaza for long hours and that Tavor is going to feel like a boat anchor, or, the whole boat if you're a woman.

If they're able to bring more firepower pound for pound with an in house AR15, why wouldn't they?

 

[can14]

I was buying lots of parts and guns from a company that made complete AR15 rifles when I was a Dealer/Exporter
mostly CNC machines that made the main parts
the whole area would fit in a four car garage
they wanted me to look into doing the same set up in Canada, needless to say , the Crown was not very helpful, so we gave up
then the Crown made them restricted and now prohibited
I can totally see how Israel can make a lot of guns
Canada would have been better at the time because of all of the companies that make the small parts etc in America Free Trade Agreement

 

[I Dont Care About You]

I've read that clearing jams in the Tavor is easier than other bullpups like the Keltec RDB since the chamber is more visible, but then again, it's still more difficult than an AR.

Full disclaimer, I've been saving to pick up a X95 this year, so I'm not ####ting on the Tavor with this post. Just looking for opinions on the IDF's intent to move away from it.

I haven't yet had to clear a jam in my X95 but it would not be more difficult than an AR.

individual movement around threshold is harder with a bullpup having a bulky back end and a magazine sticking out, kinda difficult to explain in words. The length of barrel is just one of many things, on top of adding things like LAD and white light. .

I've been playing with my X95 in the basement and it is just as easy to bend around a threshold as a longer AR. The only exception to this is an offside threshold, where it is slightly more difficult to twist the rifle around the wrong way.

Bullpups have their place, but they are not the answer for everything.

One place the bullpup is far superior is entering and exiting a vehicle.

It is a good point you make. I love the ergonomics and weight balance on the X95, but the ergos of swapping mags on a bullpup...I honestly don't think I will ever get accustomed to it - to me (anyways), it really feels unnatural. And it's not because I am used to the AR platform. I am sure that there are people who can swap mags fast, but I'd bet for the vast majority of average joes, it is a more awkward motion than a mag swap on an AR level firearm.

The bolt catch/release button in the back on my X95 - I have stopped using it years ago and just run the charging handle now.

I've seen numerous gun tubers who, with a bit of practice are able to do mag changes just as fast, if not faster than on an X95 as with an AR.

X95 bolt release is the best thing since sliced bread. Extend you thumb as you ram the mag home and the release is right there. It is 3x faster than an AR and prob 5x faster than using the charge handle. It is SO easy, I'm not sure why you wouldn't use it?

 

[I Dont Care About You]

For sure the reduced forend space on a bullpup is an issue with all the stuff military users want to hang off a rifle.

Yet, with all the stuff military users want to hang off a rifle, conventional setup rifles end up quite front end heavy. The X95 balances in the arms much better than an AR. Smaller, slighter users will find the X95 much easier to handle and shoot offhand than a conventional rifle.

We have 4 AR's and unless short barrelled carbines become non-restricted, I wouldn't go back to a conventional rifle.

 

[Jarvy]

A hand will always find the other hand quicker than anything else.

That's the theory behind the UZI and it's pistol grip magazine, but...

That is something the AR will always have going for it over a bullpup.

I don't know how to tell you this, but an AR's magazine isn't found "in the hand" any more than a bullpup's is. The X95 is a great rifle, but it's an expensive proprietary design. All armies need is something that can sling 5.56 reasonably reliably, how "good" a rifle is at the end-user level is nearly irrelevant. AR15s do the job and are dirt cheap to manufacture. Probably all there is to it.

That's why I do not like the 13" X95. and no space for LAD and switches.

The X95 the IDF settled on has a 15" barrel IIRC. I've heard anecdotal stories about how the 13" muzzles were too short and guys wouldn't clear cover properly around corners before trying to take a shot. Agree with the lack of space for switches on the little MTARs, I ironically found the long handguards we got on the civilian models way more useful.

 

[greentips]

the COM of bullpup is behind the pistol grip at the back, the gun tends to level naturally if it is tugged in under arm pit.

In an open field doing things like section attack in an extended line, it is actually quite nice to run with it if no one is in front to look out for. The landing on the ground is nice. Using a t-pod on X95 is super nice and stable, and fast because it doesnt hang a bipod 10" away from the receiver. With a GL, it balances nicely.

The cons come in when is is calling for either gun up or gun down where they are people around. It is not as nice to drive the gun from gun up to firing positing - it is like pulling a hammer up by the handle. I guess people can say do "gun down", hey, this is an institution thing sometimes you just follow and dont argue.

I give mag change some more thoughts here because I used to run X95 and I developed some mag change drills for it. It is quite fast but it will NOT not be allowed in most canadian gun range and a lot of t old school military ranges. it is quite easy and fast to roll the butt up on the shoulder to have the mag at eye level for a mag change. It is the same concept as bringing the mag well to eye level with AR for a mag change. But the problem of doing this is of course, it raises the gun sky high, so it is not exactly a good thing in confined space .

The school of thought is to bring the work to eye level instead of lower head to look at work - so it is not so much of the speed of doing things but it is about not making the user to look down to do things. With a bullpup it draws the user not only to look down but to look back if the user doesn't follow the "don't move head principle", but it is a bit unavoidable in a prone position.

Just a note of history - Bullpup is an old concept from the 60's.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

Video footage out of Gaza seems to show a lot of the 13" X95.


Maybe the issue for the IDF is that the AR is cheaper to produce. Economics is always a factor for an army.

Another possible factor could be lefties. An AR is inherently easy for a lefty to use without any modifications. The X95 requires a ca. $300 bolt and an armourer to make the swap. Lefties and righties can't interchange rifles in an emergency. We lefties are some 15% of the population.