IDPA - Duty Rig - Military

CaptV

CaptV

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I actually have some trepidation about putting up this thread.

Let me start with some caveats:

1. I need facts. Not speculation.
2. I value your opinions. But if you opinion isn't the official IDPA position, then thanks, but save it for another thread.

IDPA rulebook states - (quote): Police or military officers may use their duty rig, but ALL retention features of the holster MUST be used and all belt equipment (mace, handcuffs, etc) must be present.

SIT - Military personnel who compete in IDPA must, by necessity, wear a thigh rig. Shoulder harness are BS, don't work with flak vest, etc, and are not allowed by IDPA anyway.

Military duty rig is:

CADPAT
Flak Vest (excluded from CFSAC this year)
Tac Vest complete with canteen (and respirator but let's talk about THAT later)
Helmet
BEW/Ear pro
Thigh rig

So - what's allowed?
 
CaptV

In respnose to my request for a ruling on this subject I received the following from HQ. This ruling and others are listed on the IDPA Canada web site. You might want to go there as well.

"On the drop holsters, If the soldier wants to work out an agreement with the local Match Director to shoot for no score, then it would be ok but otherwise there is no provision for using a drop leg holster in IDPA. If he is truly using it then the MD may give him a pass for local matches but he should not have his score listed in the final results. It would be a complete no go for a sanctioned match.

Robert Ray
International Defensive Pistol Association"

In my discussions with Robert it is clear other than duty belt holsters IDPA does not allow vest retention. shoulder holsters, drop leg etc. While the existing rule allows for duty rigs ( read belt holsters commonly used by Police Forces and Military Police) it does not mandate their use. Members of the military are free to use civilian equipment described in the rule book.

I hope this satisfies your question. If you have any further questions please contact me by PM or email: bob.bonenfant@idpa.com

Take Care

Bob
 
Thanks Bob - I appreciate the timely response. Let me ponder this before sending you a PM, I understand the reasons behind the rule, but given the realities of fighting a war, maybe IDPA should cut some slack to those who are going overseas, and want to train up...

Cheers,
 
CaptV said:
Thanks Bob - I appreciate the timely response. Let me ponder this before sending you a PM, I understand the reasons behind the rule, but given the realities of fighting a war, maybe IDPA should cut some slack to those who are going overseas, and want to train up...

Cheers,
Click to expand...

they are being cut someslack, they just cannot shoot for score in sanctioned matches, but the fact of the matter is that IDPA encourages all people to participate, and at my club as well as just about every other club we make exceptions.....

which is super, practice nights is all about fun.... bring your gun and setup and shoot, have fun and practice up till your hearts content.

for sanctioned matches come and and shoot.... have fun and do not worry about score, after all if you where shooting for score in this "sport" you would play by the rules, if all you want is practice time then score does not really matter to you......

same thing with the "tactical" group that likes to shoot IDPA more as CCW training then a sport.
 
To clarify at a Santioned match drp leg, vest and shoulder holsters would NOT be allowed to participate in the event. For IDPA club events only members of the military would be allowed to shoot for no score using their miltary drop leg, shoulder or vest holsters. It is an absolute no go for civilians.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
To clarify at a Santioned match drp leg, vest and shoulder holsters would NOT be allowed to participate in the event. For IDPA club events only members of the military would be allowed to shoot for no score using their miltary drop leg, shoulder or vest holsters. It is an absolute no go for civilians.

Take Care

Bob
Click to expand...

Not even for a Tactical/SWAT or K9 who wear this style of holster on a daily basis?
 
Nope! Not even.

I would expect MD's to extend this courtesy to any of our members of the Armed Services who are about to put themselves in harms way. If our sport can provide a venue to assist those members of the military then be all means. I am sure CaptV is well aware of the safety concerns behind the ruling and I know our members of the Canadian Armed Forces are professional enough to not abuse the exception. Sanctioned Matches are not designed for "practice" hence the ruling relative to those events.

Under no circumtances are civilian shooters to be extended this exception at IDPA club events.

Take Care

Bob
 
Not trying to sound argumentative (but will probably come across as such...)

Duty rig as defined above; seen and understood.

When was that definition of duty rig written (in particular "belt holster")? I would imagine it was well before the wider use of drop-leg holsters by military and LE that is seen today. I would submit that it might be worthy of review by the higher organization to fall in line with the times.

Is the emphasis behind the whole IDPA principle towards CCW, or towards Defensive pistol shooting? For both LE and Mil, the pistol is classed and employed in a strictly defensive role. As I read in the rule book and IDPA periodicals/ websites, the guiding principle is that you compete with what you carry daily.

Many LE (muni/prov/fed) use drop legs daily and the military now issues various brands of drop leg routinely. The current fighting order (defined in first post) precludes the use of a belt holster, particularly for left-handed shooters (respirator covers a drop leg holster).

I could understand if duty rigs were seen to give a decisive speed advantage over standard IDPA gear, but as mentioned all retention devices are to be retained on the holster, and duty mag pouches have a secured flap on each one (compared to the non-thumb strap holster and open top mag holders in use for the "Civvy" rig). This of course applies to both revolvers and magazine fed pistols.

I'm curious about the shooting for no score statement. Not to sound petty, but I'm paying the full IDPA membership fee, match fees, and in my case travelling 200+ km each way to compete. If I was just shooting for the love of shooting, I could do that approx 200+ km closer to home with a lot less fees.

If LE and Mil are to shoot for no score, does that mean that any match standings and qualifiers shot by Mil and LE in the past will now be deleted from past matches? Will new final standings have to be set up now? If shooting for no score, does that mean no match/IDPA fees as there is no administration of our scores?

Seems a shame to penalize LE and MIL for competing in what they carry daily for duty.

Just my $0.02. Flame on...
 
You sign up to play IDPA then you agree to play by their rules...
I love how people come into a game and then want to have the rules chaged to suit themselves...

I mean I'd like to play golf, but I only own a hockey stickso can I just bring my hockey stick instead...?

If you wanna use other equipment set up and run a shoot that allows it..

Oh... and as far as using IDPA as an opportunity to "train up"...
You gotta be f***in' kidding.
 
All games start out as a concept, and rules and restrictions to make the game safe and fair are developed and agreed on. At the end of the day, IPSC and IDPA are games. There are those who make the rules, and those who decide to play by them, or not.
 
667 said:
Oh... and as far as using IDPA as an opportunity to "train up"...
You gotta be f***in' kidding.
Click to expand...

Before this gets out of control...I'm asking a simple question.

Why can coppers compete for score wearing duty rig and not soldiers wearing their duty rig? That's the crux of the matter. This question must have come up in the US.

If you REALLY wanted a level playing field, wouldn't the police exemption need to be rescinded?

Re-read my first post, please re. speculation/opinion.

Thanks for your point of view, though.
 
banskopivo said:
Not trying to sound argumentative (but will probably come across as such...)

Not at all.

Duty rig as defined above; seen and understood.

When was that definition of duty rig written (in particular "belt holster")? I would imagine it was well before the wider use of drop-leg holsters by military and LE that is seen today. I would submit that it might be worthy of review by the higher organization to fall in line with the times.

No, The ruling was obtained two weeks ago. IDPA is based upon the concept of CCW and developed as a sport out of that discipline. Leg holsters do not meet this criteria. IDPA did not have develop from a military or LE bacground.

Is the emphasis behind the whole IDPA principle towards CCW, or towards Defensive pistol shooting?

Defensive shooting scenarios developed as a sport

With the exception of LE/Military folks - provided they are using their duty rigs - IPDA is shot from a concealed holster. The Classifier tests the shooters shooting skills and does not require the use of a concealed garment.

For both LE and Mil, the pistol is classed and employed in a strictly defensive role. As I read in the rule book and IDPA periodicals/ websites, the guiding principle is that you compete with what you carry daily.

Many LE (muni/prov/fed) use drop legs daily and the military now issues various brands of drop leg routinely. The current fighting order (defined in first post) precludes the use of a belt holster, particularly for left-handed shooters (respirator covers a drop leg holster).

Yes, unfortunately IDPA, as a sport does not allow drop leg holsters

I could understand if duty rigs were seen to give a decisive speed advantage over standard IDPA gear, but as mentioned all retention devices are to be retained on the holster, and duty mag pouches have a secured flap on each one (compared to the non-thumb strap holster and open top mag holders in use for the "Civvy" rig). This of course applies to both revolvers and magazine fed pistols.

I'm curious about the shooting for no score statement. Not to sound petty, but I'm paying the full IDPA membership fee, match fees, and in my case travelling 200+ km each way to compete. If I was just shooting for the love of shooting, I could do that approx 200+ km closer to home with a lot less fees.

Yes or you can shoot "civie" rigs and compete like the rest of us do.

If LE and Mil are to shoot for no score, does that mean that any match standings and qualifiers shot by Mil and LE in the past will now be deleted from past matches?

No. The Classifer cannot be shot with drop leg holsters. LE officers can use their duty rigs ie Belt Holsters with all their ancillary equipement attached.
Will new final standings have to be set up now? If shooting for no score, does that mean no match/IDPA fees as there is no administration of our scores?

Whatever fees the individual club levies for club matches would be paid at the discretion of the MD.

Seems a shame to penalize LE and MIL for competing in what they carry daily for duty.

Just my $0.02. Flame on...
Click to expand...

[No reason to flame. I have highlighted my responses to make it esier to discern. As a matter of interest do the Canadian Forces allow you to take your weapons off the base in Canada? Just curious.

I hope this answers your questions.

Take Care

Bob
 
I'll start this by saying...I don't know anything about IDPA...but I do know that If I could wear my IPSC Holster as low as a Drop Leg rig...my draw would be one hell of alot faster...read into that what you may ;)
 
667 said:
You sign up to play IDPA then you agree to play by their rules...
I love how people come into a game and then want to have the rules chaged to suit themselves...
Click to expand...

Except for those 10 'Rules' brought down from the mountain by Moses, very few rules are carved in stone. Put the first edition of the IPSC rule book next to the current one and I'd bet you couldn't find many similarities. I see nothing wrong with advocating changes to rules in an effort to improve a sport.
 
667 said:
You sign up to play IDPA then you agree to play by their rules...
I love how people come into a game and then want to have the rules chaged to suit themselves...

I mean I'd like to play golf, but I only own a hockey stickso can I just bring my hockey stick instead...?

If you wanna use other equipment set up and run a shoot that allows it..

Oh... and as far as using IDPA as an opportunity to "train up"...
You gotta be f***in' kidding.
Click to expand...

I really take offense at your end comment. Any oppertunity to practise,before deploying, including an IDPA Match, is a good thing.
 
Canuck44 said:
As a matter of interest do the Canadian Forces allow you to take your weapons off the base in Canada? Just curious. /QUOTE]

General answer to a good (general) question...

While on duty or training requiring the carriage of weapons, yes.

Let me counter with another general question:

Are civilians allowed to CCW in Canada?

Cheers,

Steph
Click to expand...
 
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