I'm torn between 223 or 308 HELP!

I know there are hot 308 shooters out there... I know many of them. Brian Litz. German Salazar, and many more are proof that in the right hands it can be made to work. I believe in the saying beware of the man with only one gun, for he knows how to use it

Yes you can put a big block chevy in a volkswagen, but is that really how you want to try and learn things? Why not choose a caliber that will make learning easier easier? I realize there is literally profit to be made by encouraging tinker this, buy that, but seriously, is that what one should counsel and mentor a beginner shooter to buy into?

If a fellow can be successful early in the game, that success will keep all the primer pimps in business. Telling someone he can get just as good a picture on his tv by holding a lawn chair over his head is defeating the purpose.

Get the right tool for the job and learn to use it properly - and know when another tool is a better choice without adding personal preference and prejudice inot the mix. I admit that the poster has put one or the other as his caliber choices. I cannot help but wonder if that is becuse the CGN crowd only sees the world in 223 and 308? If one had never seen a gun and yet wanted to start shooting, what would he learn by obtaining all his advice fom this website?

Probably that Savage is bettet that Remington, 223 and 308 are the only cartridges worth shooting, Accuracy and precison need only a bipod, some spraypaint and a cheap scope, and that F-Class is the only shoting discipline. I note that thee are almost no TR, Palma or benchrest shooters here. There is probably a very good reason for that

I think it is also intersting to note that one of the messiahs of the CGN world, mr mystic had his ass handed to him on a platter at raton. It is the difference between speaking from extensive experience and speakling from a computer screen or book. One can blame the equipment to a certain extent, but I have a t-shirt that has 30 other excuses that are just as credible. Reading books, shooting rocks and throwing together guns from cheap parts is not how most expert shooters get their results. Good that you finally see the failings of what you preach and admit it, but a little hint..... experienced competitive shooters have heard all the good excuses. Now might be the right time to just inwardly reflect.

another article for the website?

.
 
paperslayer, I expected such a direct response. Problem is you dont even know me - easy enough given your proximity to me.

If you feel my advice is driven by my business interests, you don't know me very well.

Think about your statement about my experience in Raton. Did you ever read the many posts I have made about my experience? Re read them and I think you will get a nice clear picture on my match and the potholes I experienced. Also, my thoughts on the results.

And does one bad match determine ones fate? At least I was there shooting, learning and trying out some very different tools.

I base my posts on my experience shooting bullets downrange. My business lets me see, communicate with a wide range of shooters and experience many products.

Don't like my advice, entirely your perogative. But try and understand what that advice actually relates to in real world experience. Might just surprise you.

I am not basing this on second hand opinion.

But it sounds like your mind is made up when any advice comes from a dealer. You already assume they are spewing trash to sell junk. Again, that is your choice to make.

Anytime you want to come down for a casual day of LR rock smacking. Let me know...

Oh by the way, if you are refering to savage based rifle as junk or that a Sightron can't be a good scope given the price point - consider the wide range of shooters now using them around the world. Must be a lot of "silly" shooters out there. Some I have met from far away lands with massive budgets...

Have you used any of these products? The answer really doesn't matter.

The booming sales and useage speak loud enough...

YMMV

Jerry

PS If you think I only know about 223 and 308, you REALLY do not know me very well. shot Open for years and have developed a variety of wildcats to achieve performance levels that are now being exploited. But your mind is already made up....
 
Paperslayer; you are a mortal among giants. You come on here beaking off about a well respected member of the board who contributes on a daily baisis and encourages people to get out and shoot. Shares good advice. Then pass judgement on the other board members........

Soon you will get a reputation around here where no one will pay any attention to you.
 
paperslayer said:
I know there are hot 308 shooters out there... I know many of them. Brian Litz. German Salazar, and many more are proof that in the right hands it can be made to work. I believe in the saying beware of the man with only one gun, for he knows how to use it

Yes you can put a big block chevy in a volkswagen, but is that really how you want to try and learn things? Why not choose a caliber that will make learning easier easier? I realize there is literally profit to be made by encouraging tinker this, buy that, but seriously, is that what one should counsel and mentor a beginner shooter to buy into?

If a fellow can be successful early in the game, that success will keep all the primer pimps in business. Telling someone he can get just as good a picture on his tv by holding a lawn chair over his head is defeating the purpose.

Get the right tool for the job and learn to use it properly - and know when another tool is a better choice without adding personal preference and prejudice inot the mix. I admit that the poster has put one or the other as his caliber choices. I cannot help but wonder if that is becuse the CGN crowd only sees the world in 223 and 308? If one had never seen a gun and yet wanted to start shooting, what would he learn by obtaining all his advice fom this website?

Probably that Savage is bettet that Remington, 223 and 308 are the only cartridges worth shooting, Accuracy and precison need only a bipod, some spraypaint and a cheap scope, and that F-Class is the only shoting discipline. I note that thee are almost no TR, Palma or benchrest shooters here. There is probably a very good reason for that

I think it is also intersting to note that one of the messiahs of the CGN world, mr mystic had his ass handed to him on a platter at raton. It is the difference between speaking from extensive experience and speakling from a computer screen or book. One can blame the equipment to a certain extent, but I have a t-shirt that has 30 other excuses that are just as credible. Reading books, shooting rocks and throwing together guns from cheap parts is not how most expert shooters get their results. Good that you finally see the failings of what you preach and admit it, but a little hint..... experienced competitive shooters have heard all the good excuses. Now might be the right time to just inwardly reflect.

another article for the website?

.
Click to expand...

Do you compete? Seems there are a few TR shooters lurking around.
 
Thanks again for all your input guys! I did not start this thread for a debate, I started to hear from fellow shooters and what they like or use. So if we could keep it to the topic, we all have our own opinions and are entitled to them. I respect that!
 
Before it snows, if you want to go shooting and see what a 223 can do, let me know...

It ain't perfect, but a whole lot of fun. Do you know if any of the Kelowna/Vernon ranges will set up for F class? There have been rumors galore but I have not chatted with anyone directly involved.

Jerry
 
I feel compelled to point out a few of things:

(1) a poor result in a match doesn't mean that the competitor is a poor shooter or that the gear was useless. Jerry and I disagree on a number of things and he has p'ed me off in the past but he is a very good shooter and he has been prepared to experiment with a few different things that actually inform and benefit a wider readership. He is also a guy who will always try and help a newer shooter and for that he ought to be commended.

(2) many persons (myself included) start precision shooting with a .223/.308 in part because of easy availability of factory ammo. Some then move along to other cartridges as their reloading expertise grows while some, like me, try and simply get better at what we started with. I am the first to admit that I am no expert shooter ( read my reviews - I say it often ) but I love to see the upward trajectory of my scores over time. To be frank, I know that my 155.5/Norma/Varget .308 combo is never going to be as ballistically efficient as some other shooters 6mm combo but that is part of the challenge I enjoy.

(3) Of course there are things on CGN which could be improved - may I respectfully suggest that the best way to ensure improvement is my adding value through offering your own reviews and thoughts rather than highlighting areas of weakness.
 

300m fun yesterday with the rifle and ammo I used in Raton.

I pulled the 4th shot low to see if it was the group or me for POI. didn't bother to adj scope as the group was forming nicely.

Video is sped up.

Not perfect but pretty darn good - conditions cool, sunny with light gusty winds. moderate mirage

Jerry
 
223 for cost (or more trigger time), 308 for balistics.


223 for short range precision or 308 for longer range precision


Savage for ease of upgrading and lack of required 'tuning', Remington if you want to pay for some custon work done.
 
A tricked out Tika 308 with a Night-force scope only because I'm like of my nephew's shinny toy with his iphone ballistic apps. But any rifle is capable if you spend the money and time behind the bench at home and on the range. Go for the best comfort & fit for you, whether it's any one in particular or hell just try and enjoy all of them, as many of us have.
Driller
 
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