Importance of iron sights?

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highplainsdrifter

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Hi all, I have a difficult decision to make and I'm hoping that getting a few other opinions might help.
My question is this, how important are iron sights when teaching shooting fundamentals?
The reason I ask is that I'm going to be selling off most of my rimfire collection, but my daughter is getting to an age where she is showing interest in shooting, and I plan to keep one for her to learn on.
My 10/22's are out, I get the importance of a bolt action. So I'm left with half a dozen CZ's, all of which have glass mounted, but only one of which has factory installed iron sights. Thoughts?
 
Can't go wrong knowing how to shoot with iron sights - you may want to look into a Savage Mark II I have one with iron sights and its pretty good hitting paper at 50 yards
 
To me it's kinda like learning to drive a stick, you can get along without it just fine, but every once in awhile it sure comes in handy, plus, it's just a different kind of fun.
 
How about keeping two of your CZ's for your daughter instead of just one? One with iron sights, one with a scope. Two different shooting sighting skills to work on for an entire life of enjoyment.

Shooting with iron sights never gets old for me with my CZ 452 Lux. I scoped my CZ 455 Lux (which also has iron sights) with a 3-9 power scope and use it to hunt grouse. Both CZ's are used for plinking fun.

Occasionally I slide on a high power scope on my CZ 452 to shoot bench rest. The 11mm dovetail rail makes this easy by keeping the 11mm rings on the scope. I bought Anschutz compatible 11mm dovetail rings (which also fit CZ 11mm rails), so I can slide the scopes on and off between my CZ 452 and Anschutz target rifle rings. Its so nice having that 452 for multi-purpose while I keep my CZ 455 dedicated to its hunting 3-9 power scope (but it also has iron sights should the scope ever fail).
 
Biologist has a good idea, tho I was thinking to keep the iron sight rifle and a 3-9 or 4-12 scope on it. As long as you're careful with mounting the rings the scope can be 'un- and re-installed' with little loss of Z. My best 2 CZs don't have irons, so if I were out in the bush I'd carry a 'spare' scope or red dot 'pre-Z'-ed in case of accidents.
 
Personally i think iron sights are part of the fun of 22’s being light weight close range plinkers. Who wouldn’t want to use the sights or a peep unless they don’t have the eyes for it. I think the fundamentals are the same though. You still need good finger, breathing etc. I own five rimfires and only one wears a scope which is a CZ i shoot at the bench only. I do prefer a scope for small game though which most of it is done with an air rifle.
 
highplainsdrifter said:
Hi all, I have a difficult decision to make and I'm hoping that getting a few other opinions might help.
My question is this, how important are iron sights when teaching shooting fundamentals?
The reason I ask is that I'm going to be selling off most of my rimfire collection, but my daughter is getting to an age where she is showing interest in shooting, and I plan to keep one for her to learn on.
My 10/22's are out, I get the importance of a bolt action. So I'm left with half a dozen CZ's, all of which have glass mounted, but only one of which has factory installed iron sights. Thoughts?
Click to expand...

The choice I made some time ago - I got a CZ 452 Scout - small rifle - I think the iron sights kind of good. I used Quick Detach Warne rings to mount a 4 power rimfire scope - and then found old school Parker Hale PH 16 that was made for BRNO rifles - fits perfectly to this CZ 452 - so is three choices of sighting. I actually have both the scope and the PH16 mounted - can use that scope with the PH16 swung off to the left side. Was my intent to have an iron sighted .22 here, for when Grand kids showed up. I think everyone should learn first with barrel mounted rear sight. I should have learned to use aperture rear sight 50 or 60 years ago - but I did not. My thinking (maybe my hope!) now is that the Grand kids will learn to use open sights and then aperture sights well - the shift to using a scope is pretty easy - might not be so, going the other way.
 
OP, the first thing you need to do is find out which eye is dominant for your daughter.

Being right/left handed and opposite eye dominant is far more common than most realize.

I've taught a lot of children/teens to shoot and from what I've seen, around 15% of them are opposing eye dominant.

This can make for some very twisted looking shooting positions if they can't learn to use the same side eye or shoot with the hand that will match the eye.

All of the youngsters I've taught to shoot started on iron sights. I've seen some very impressive groups, right out to 100 yds shot by these youngsters, that were supposedly ''average'' shooters.

I found that people in general that are taught to shoot with a scope are lost when it comes to using iron sights. Mostly they just can't grasp the idea of lining up two sights with a target. Often they will look over the rear sight and only use the front sight or just use the rear sight. With a scope, they don't have to get this system down to where it's useful.

Using iron sights helps to extend the concentration time of a young person

Most young people can't concentrate for longer than a minute, some even have a shorter attention span.

I've had teachers comment that some of the youngsters that were taught to shoot, had their attention spans extended enough to pick up some of what they were being taught, especially in the mathematics class. Shooting and math seem to be relevant to the same part of the brain.

Hand eye coordination is also enhanced with shooting.

Anyway, you need to keep a rifle for yourself as well. You don't expect your daughter to be the only one shooting???

Watching/competing with you is something she will never forget.

My grandson who has just turned 19 likes to tell his friends how and who taught him to shoot.

I've watched him teaching his friends how to shoot and he's quite good at it. I smile a bit when he uses the same phrases I used on him to chide him out of a funk or not to lose interest because they didn't get it right.

IMHO, keep one of both and when you feel your daughter is good enough with the iron sights, move her onto the rifle with a scope.

Allowing her to eventually own both of those rifles, to maybe teach her own children to shoot = PRICELESS.


I read a study about a test that was done by the US military, right after WWII, when scopes were becoming more available to civilians. They take their civilian marksmanship programs very seriously.

They took several experienced shooters and had them shoot scope rifles at ranges from 25yds to 300yds.

They already knew that most shooters were OK at 100yds with iron sights and most were not good at 200, with only about 5% being proficient at 300.

They thought that the groups would improve at all ranges once the shooters were given scoped rifles that all were familiar with.

NOT SO. It turned out that up to 100yds the average shooter shot every bit as well with iron sights as they did with scoped rifles, as long as their vision was good or they wore corrective glasses.

At 150 yards, the scopes definitely proved to have an advantage that was multiplied out to 300.

You won't be hindering your daughter's abilities by teaching her to shoot with iron sights. Might even help her out in other areas.
 
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I had my own .22 BSA single shot bolt action with peep sights installed when I was 6 years old... grew up on a small farm 5 miles from a small town. I had the same rifle when I was in my early teens and won a lot of turkeys and hams and roast at various shoots our small town held. Next rifle was an old used Trombone with open iron sights. Often nailed running gophers and rabbits with that. Learning with iron sights was definitely the way to learn as far as I was concerned. Scopes took over for greater distances on varmints and in hunting.
 
First, thanks to everyone who took the time to reply, you've given me a lot to think about, and I apperciate it.
Seems that the jury is in: iron sights are the way to go for a young shooter. I enjoyed the stick shift metaphor, and like Dennis I think back to my own childhood experiences hunting small game behind an old 22 with peep sights, and realize how much that has influenced my shooting to this day.
I think Biologist and bearhunter have convinced me that keeping two of my CZ's instead of one is the right call, twist my rubber arm! ;)
My 452 Classic shoots tight groups and has a nice set of iron sights already installed, and I know I would miss the 452 Varmit that I set up for benchrest.

Bearhunter raised a very interesting point about eye dominance. As a strong right right dominant shooter this has never been an issue for me, but after a few fun experiments with my daughter, it apears that she is in fact cross eye dominant (right handed with a bias to the left eye). Any thoughts on how to accomodate for this when teaching her?
 
If she feels more comfortable right handed she only has to slightly squint her left eye or a spot of tape on her left eyeglass ... the left eye dominance affects shotgun shooting more and archery.
 
highplainsdrifter said:
First, thanks to everyone who took the time to reply, you've given me a lot to think about, and I apperciate it.
Seems that the jury is in: iron sights are the way to go for a young shooter. I enjoyed the stick shift metaphor, and like Dennis I think back to my own childhood experiences hunting small game behind an old 22 with peep sights, and realize how much that has influenced my shooting to this day.
I think Biologist and bearhunter have convinced me that keeping two of my CZ's instead of one is the right call, twist my rubber arm! ;)
My 452 Classic shoots tight groups and has a nice set of iron sights already installed, and I know I would miss the 452 Varmit that I set up for benchrest.

Bearhunter raised a very interesting point about eye dominance. As a strong right right dominant shooter this has never been an issue for me, but after a few fun experiments with my daughter, it apears that she is in fact cross eye dominant (right handed with a bias to the left eye). Any thoughts on how to accomodate for this when teaching her?
Click to expand...

Do not over look the option of Quick Detachable scope rings - lets you have a rifle set up with a scope and no tools required to remove the scope to use the iron sights. Many QD scopes reinstall with fingers only and are quite close to being sighted in again - to the extent that some people will have two or more scopes - each in their own QD rings - ready to go on a particular rifle - can swap scopes on a whim if desired, or more usual to be able to carry a spare scope that is already sighted in.

I used Warne brand 721LM Medium 1" rings to install a Leupold FX-1 4x28 rimfire 4X onto a CZ 452 Scout with 11mm dovetails. I had to use High height Warne Maxima rings # 2B1LM to install a 2-7x33 Leupold VX-Freedom Rimfire on a BRNO No. 1 with 16 mm dovetails - Medium height #1B1LM fit and clearance the front to barrel, but the bolt handle hit that scope eye-piece - I could have bent the bolt handle (?) and re-inletted the stock - but was able to find some taller rings to use.
 
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I'm 73 and always was 'cross-dom' tho I didn't know until a few years ago. I learned and always have shot right-handed using my right eye on scope or sights. I use the 'squint' as Guntech said, and when shooting SG or Pistols my left-dom takes 'charge' without thought. 'Drifter, you should let your daughter shoot right-handed using right eye on the sights/scope. I'd advise against blocking her left eye with a patch or tape on glasses - she might need to see something peripherally that could be blocked.
 
Buck1950 said:
I'm 73 and always was 'cross-dom' tho I didn't know until a few years ago. I learned and always have shot right-handed using my right eye on scope or sights. I use the 'squint' as Guntech said, and when shooting SG or Pistols my left-dom takes 'charge' without thought.
Click to expand...

Shooting a normally stocked shotgun from your right shoulder using your left eye places the pattern way to the left... the farther the shot the more left it is.
 
Again, thank you all for some thoughtful advice.

Potashminer - I apreciate you looking out for my wallet ;) If it comes down to it and I need to sell one more rifle, I'll take a look at my collection of rings and see if anything fits the bill. Your tips will make that easier, thanks!

As to eye dominance, I like the idea of shooting on the right with a sqiunt or bit of tape if that doesn't take. Dennis and Buck1950, thank you for your thoughts on this.

Dennis, you brought up issues regarding cross dominance and archery/shotgunning. I plan to start my daughter on rimfire shooting, but she has already expressed intrest in archery, and ultimatly I would love to be able to spend time with her out at the local trap field. Any thoughts on dealing with this issue as she transitions into different activities?
 
If she is going to shoot shotgun/archery from right shoulder and her left eye is dominant she will have to squint her left eye or use tape on her glasses. (more commonly done)
 
highplainsdrifter said:
Hi all, I have a difficult decision to make and I'm hoping that getting a few other opinions might help.
My question is this, how important are iron sights when teaching shooting fundamentals?
The reason I ask is that I'm going to be selling off most of my rimfire collection, but my daughter is getting to an age where she is showing interest in shooting, and I plan to keep one for her to learn on.
My 10/22's are out, I get the importance of a bolt action. So I'm left with half a dozen CZ's, all of which have glass mounted, but only one of which has factory installed iron sights. Thoughts?
Click to expand...

IvoB said:
Can't go wrong knowing how to shoot with iron sights - you may want to look into a Savage Mark II I have one with iron sights and its pretty good hitting paper at 50 yards
Click to expand...

Keep the CZ with the factory irons; a savage Mark II is not even in the same league. I have been shooting rimfire for about 55 years when dad started me off at about 6 years old with an old Cooey which was our barn rifle. I have thinned the herd; my Brno 4 and Cooey 78 are irons (both aperture and conventional; a CZ 452 currently with a scope and factory tangent sight, and hooded front. I just finished setting up a Savage 64 for PCC style competition that we do at our club with a reflex sight and backup sights I liberated from my now useless AR 15; just finished setting up the sights yesterday, and have them co-witnessing. Group size is the same when shot with the reflex sight or irons alone at 20 yards.

For me, shooting well with irons is very satisfying, and goes a long way towards helping one become a natural shooter.
 
highplainsdrifter said:
Hi all, I have a difficult decision to make and I'm hoping that getting a few other opinions might help.
My question is this, how important are iron sights when teaching shooting fundamentals?
The reason I ask is that I'm going to be selling off most of my rimfire collection, but my daughter is getting to an age where she is showing interest in shooting, and I plan to keep one for her to learn on.
My 10/22's are out, I get the importance of a bolt action. So I'm left with half a dozen CZ's, all of which have glass mounted, but only one of which has factory installed iron sights. Thoughts?
Click to expand...

highplainsdrifter said:
First, thanks to everyone who took the time to reply, you've given me a lot to think about, and I apperciate it.
Seems that the jury is in: iron sights are the way to go for a young shooter. I enjoyed the stick shift metaphor, and like Dennis I think back to my own childhood experiences hunting small game behind an old 22 with peep sights, and realize how much that has influenced my shooting to this day.
I think Biologist and bearhunter have convinced me that keeping two of my CZ's instead of one is the right call, twist my rubber arm! ;)
My 452 Classic shoots tight groups and has a nice set of iron sights already installed, and I know I would miss the 452 Varmit that I set up for benchrest.

Bearhunter raised a very interesting point about eye dominance. As a strong right right dominant shooter this has never been an issue for me, but after a few fun experiments with my daughter, it apears that she is in fact cross eye dominant (right handed with a bias to the left eye). Any thoughts on how to accomodate for this when teaching her?
Click to expand...

At last year's National Range day a young lady came out who had never shot before, one of our members was coaching her and try as she may, about 4 different types of rifles with various sight configurations, she could not hit paper at 25 meters. I swapped shooter with and very quickly discovered that she was indeed right handed with a dominant left eye. Much more common in women than men I understand. I got her to shoot single shots, left handed, with her left eye, and right away, she was hitting paper! We followed up with another rifle, shooting right handed with the left eye blocked with a stick on target repair patch on the safety glasses, and again, success!! She went from frustration to joyful excitement in short order.

She came back this year, and asked for me by name; unfortunately, I had obligations elsewhere and could not attend, but the others made sure she had a great day at the range!!
 
A dominant eye test should be done anytime you're dealing with a "new" shooter
- I've seen left-handed kids with a dominant right eye, and right-handed kid with a dominant left eye...

Eye-Dominance-Triangle.jpg
 
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