Indian trade gun project

Musketfire

Musketfire

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Hi gentlemen!

One of our own recently sold me some very interesting origional indian trade guns, today I started working on one of them a smoothbore in roughly 65 cal.

Just thought I would post the so far pictures for your enjoyment!!

The final picture is prior to stripping her down, suprisingly the lock and barrel are in lovly shape, the stock is another story, I will need to resolder the under barrel rib and replace the nipple, aside from the quite obvious stock repairs.

Pretty neat though eh??

Cheers

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Looks like you have your challenges cut out for you :>) I notice a former flintlock with the pan ground off in the back ground. What all did you get besides the one in the picture?

cheers mooncoon
 
Hi mooncoon!
Its not really challenging work to repair them...its just alot of...well work "but I find it really enjoyable"
Heres the batch, some interesting pieces indeed, after there restored I might auction one off at my regiments xmas party this year "all proceeds go to the regiment"

I must say I am quite blessed and am very thankful!!

Cheers


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mooncoon said:
Looks like you have your challenges cut out for you :>) I notice a former flintlock with the pan ground off in the back ground. What all did you get besides the one in the picture?

cheers mooncoon
Click to expand...

That piece in the background you see, is the lock off of a 1861 springfield I am restoring.....Im not showing that gem off until shes complete................ as the transformation is bloody magic!!:D:D;)"and has taken alot of complicated work"

I will tell you this though...remember the amazing derusting solution thread??
That barrel I cleaned up is from that springfield!
 
Third down, in your pic, with the "pistol grip" must have been some ahead of its' time! There's a story there, I'll bet.
 
Pete04 said:
Third down, in your pic, with the "pistol grip" must have been some ahead of its' time! There's a story there, I'll bet.
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Pete, that arm is really precious to me! and ifyou think of it ..lived through 2 generations in the fur trade!!!!:eek:
She was a keitland flintlock then converted to percussion, To be honest she shoulders like a dream, and feels awesome in the hand "has a real spirit!!!!"

The barrel on that piece is quite good, the lock is a bit damaged "nothing unrepairable" but the stock is shattered in 2:(..... Im going to have to do some creative repair work on that one, She will be amazing when its done!!!

Cheers!
 
You can easily see the pistol grip form, if you erase the buttstock in the minds eye.
I wonder how common these type of stocks where?
 
There have been both Trade Guns and Treaty Guns used by the natives.

Treaty Guns usually have British proof marks, Crown over GR over Arrow, Crown over Crossed Spears or/and Crown over Arrow.

Trade Guns often showed the Fox Head in a Circle stamp (Also called "tombstone fox" a HBC stamp) but generally had Governement proof stamps. They existed in a lot of different styles and makers.

The North West Guns had flat butt and a dragon on the side plate. Those can be Gvt proof Stamped, they were called "Common Guns" when offered through a treaty.

As said above they can show brass (and "pearls") pins but a lot does not have any.
But the natives of anywhere in Canada used almost every gun they could find, not just the Trade and Treaty Guns.

Nice pieces you have found there, guys.
 
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Baribal said:
Trade Guns often showed the Fox Head in a Circle stamp (Also called "tombstone fox" a HBC stamp) but generally had no Governement proof stamps. They existed in a lot of different styles and makers.
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The fox head was actually a sitting fox and could be either a circle fox or a tombstone fox depending on the time period and company. Also I think most British guns made after 1813 had proof marks on the barrel. Trade guns (northwest guns) were made in Belgium for one year but more or less rejected by the natives and guns before and after were British. The stamp could also be on the stock and on the barrel. Those on the stock could easily become illegible with the passing of 150 - 200 years.

cheers mooncoon

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Interesting project(s) you have there! Definitely some nice finds and I look forward to seeing it as you get it back to its former glory.

I never realised that an trade guns were made with back-action locks. Learn something every day on this site!
 
vagrantviking said:
I never realised that an trade guns were made with back-action locks. Learn something every day on this site!
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I think there are two different uses of the term trade gun. Locally it refers to the guns sold by the HBC and the Northwest Co and with the large trigger guards and serpent side plate etc. There is also a broader use of the term to refer to guns generally traded to local indigenous peoples (there are african trade guns as well as north american ones). These were often economy grade guns and could be any action. Jewitt's Narative for example which begins with a trading voyage by the boat Boston (around 1803) to Vancouver Is, describes how he was given the job of salvaging parts and assembling complete guns from several thousand second hand muskets brought out from Europe.

cheers mooncoon
 
If a Cooey .22 was sold to an Indian does it make it an Indian trade gun?
The HBC sold many such guns to Indian and Inuit customers during the last century.
Not every surviving low cost gun is an Indian trade gun. IF its provenance is such that it it can be traced to an Indian, well it was used by an Indian.
I have a HBC Imperial sxs breechloading hammer shotgun which I acquired in Eskimo Point, NWT. Pre-war gun. I know the Inuit family who used it. Many collectors would consider a HBC Imperial to be a late trade gun of a recognized pattern.
 
mooncoon said:
So you are saying that natives have never owned these two?

cheers mooncoon

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Those are some really nice looking arms Sir!


Also as a answer to a previous question, yup all the trade gun barrels are marked with english proof marks, and 1 is marked london on the upper flat.

Im not permitted to work on em today "the work shop is off limits;) as Its Canada day and the wife,Son and I are hanging out.
 
The Gun Barrel Proof Act took place in 1868. 1813 is the year of the founding of the Birmingham Proof House, and before 1868, it was not mandatory to proof sporting guns and only the "better" (read RICHER) gunsmiths did proof their guns, those made under Gvt supervision or contract were all proofed. The "Treaty Guns" distribution stopped in 1845.

Privately made firearms (barrels) proofed by the Ordnance had twice the "Crown over Crossed "Spear" or "Scepter" Viewer stamp on the barrel, while military (or Gvt) contract had "Crown / GR / Arrow and Crown over "Sceptre".

There was Trade Guns also from the North West Company from 1779 to 1821.
The HBC "Tomstone Fox" stamp was used from their fusion in 1821, before they used the "Sitting Fox in a Circle".
Some American Traders used to copy British colonial proof stamps (and even the guns themselves).

Musketfire,

Is there a maker's or HBC inspector stamp (initials) on your guns?
 
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Baribal said:
The Gun Barrel Proof Act took place in 1868. 1813 is the year of the founding of the Birmingham Proof House, and before 1868, it was not mandatory to proof sporting guns and only the "better" (read RICHER) gunsmiths did proof their guns, those made under Gvt supervision or contract were all proofed. The "Treaty Guns" distribution stopped in 1845.

Privately made firearms (barrels) proofed by the Ordnance had twice the "Crown over Crossed "Spear" or "Scepter" Viewer stamp on the barrel, while military (or Gvt) contract had "Crown / GR / Arrow and Crown over "Sceptre".

There was Trade Guns also from the North West Company from 1779 to 1821.
The HBC "Tomstone Fox" stamp was used from their fusion in 1821, before they used the "Sitting Fox in a Circle".
Some American Traders used to copy British colonial proof stamps (and even the guns themselves).

Musketfire,

Is there a maker's or HBC inspector stamp (initials) on your guns?
Click to expand...



Hi Baribal!
there are many proofs on the barrels "mostly British and like those on my snider and martini", when I have some time to, I will post some pictures


Cheers
 
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