Industry-Wide Replacement for 870/\Moss?

Gin

Gin

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Wondering if anyone can foresee a industry-wide replacement for the Remington & Mossberg Pumps?
I don't pay much attention to the Mossbergs, so I don't know which model...or to which agencies they are issued to. But I've seen the 870P's the OPP were issued being phased out, and the same story for Durham Regional Police adopting the same style of 10.5" Carbine.

Eventually the AR platform will be replaced across the board, but what about the shotgun?
 
Nestor said:
Both the shotgun and AR have application for police work.
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Well.....yeah. But that wasn't the question.

Now that the pump-action shotguns are beginning to be phased out and issued on a lesser scale with both the Police and Militaries, will there be a wide-spread replacement for the current popular pumps?
 
Gin said:
Well.....yeah. But that wasn't the question.

Now that the pump-action shotguns are beginning to be phased out and issued on a lesser scale with both the Police and Militaries, will there be a wide-spread replacement for the current popular pumps?
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Well, I simply can't see the pump being retired anytime soon, if that answers your question.
Inside 25 meters the pump still has advantage over any AR.
 
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It's possible that at least some of the duty 870s and Mossbergs out there now may be replaced by semiautos {see Portland PD adopting, and LAPD authorizing, the Benelli M4}, however I think the sun is setting on the police shotgun period outside of breaching and nonlethal duties.
 
I know that Toronto's Emergency Task Force is switchiing/has switched from 870P's to Benelli M4's, and are very happy they did.
 
For the most part pump action shotguns will be phased out and replaced with the Benelli M4. That's foolishness in my opinion but really not all that surprising either considering the mentality of today's society. A pump action requires a lot more training to master compared to a semi-auto and so we'd rather invest in newer, easier to use equipment rather than invest the time and effort into proper training. Within 10 years there will be very few LE agencies using any form of pump action shotgun, with heir use being reserved to the specialized units.
 
in our area of south western ontario i see carbines between the seats of the cruisers but have no idea if the shotgun is being carried as well . they have standard capacity mags of what looks like thirty rounds in clear mags .
 
Moving from 12Gauge Pumps to Semi's for Police work makes no sense to me beyond the "boys and their toys" mentality and a desire to have the latest cool technology.
For a cruiser's long gun, moving to the AR makes sense because it can do more then a 12gauge and even though there are a few things the 12guage does better for the average cruiser the AR is a better tool in the trunk if things go sideways.
The only downside to the AR in the cruiser is that it "militarizes" the Police to a degree in the eyes of some but the Police are going that way regardless of what the sheeple think.
In a forced entry situation with a team then it makes sense for some people to have a small 12 gauge for specialty roles.
 
VLT79 said:
For the most part pump action shotguns will be phased out and replaced with the Benelli M4. That's foolishness in my opinion but really not all that surprising either considering the mentality of today's society. A pump action requires a lot more training to master compared to a semi-auto and so we'd rather invest in newer, easier to use equipment rather than invest the time and effort into proper training. Within 10 years there will be very few LE agencies using any form of pump action shotgun, with heir use being reserved to the specialized units.
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Semiautos are a step forward for other than breaching and nonlethal duties IMO as long as they're reliable, which shouldn't be an issue with quality modern ones.

And something like a Benelli M4 is a big step up quality wise over the pumps of today, if you have to buy new.

Even the most skilled shotgunners will usually be slightly faster engaging targets with a semi, so it's hardly just a dumbed down solution for the people who didn't grow up running pumps second nature as was common many decades ago.
 
870P said:
Semiautos are a step forward for other than breaching and nonlethal duties IMO as long as they're reliable, which shouldn't be an issue with quality modern ones.

And something like a Benelli M4 is a big step up quality wise over the pumps of today, if you have to buy new.

Even the most skilled shotgunners will usually be slightly faster engaging targets with a semi, so it's hardly just a dumbed down solution for the people who didn't grow up running pumps second nature as was common many decades ago.
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I agree it's not about dumbing down the manual of arms. It's about having a modern gun.
The thing is if you are engaging multiple threats outside at longer then across the room distances the AR is a way better tool.

What do you see the role of the 12 Gauge being for Police moving forward?

Breaching, non-lethal seems about the only purpose for a 12 Gauge if you have access to non neutered AR's.

And in those cases the Benelli's are a waste of money and not well suited.
 
Can-down said:
I agree it's not about dumbing down the manual of arms. It's about having a modern gun.
The thing is if you are engaging multiple threats outside at longer then across the room distances the AR is a way better tool.

What do you see the role of the 12 Gauge being for Police moving forward?

Breaching, non-lethal seems about the only purpose for a 12 Gauge if you have access to non neutered AR's.

And in those cases the Benelli's are a waste of money and not well suited.
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You've still got much higher hit probability, and probably stopping power, going for the shotgun unless maybe the department runs slugs exclusively, or uses really effective ammo in their ARs, respectively.

I'd also say the shotgun is pretty hard to beat to further out than across the room distances, more like 25 meters, which covers likely "social" distances.

Ultimately however I also see the antipersonnel shotgun fading away unless maybe it can get a clean break away from the ancient shotshell format and into something more modern.
 
I'd also say the shotgun is pretty hard to beat to further out than across the room distances, more like 25 meters, which covers likely "social" distances.
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I agree.

The AR is just easier to shoot well and will reach out a lot further if needed.
 
It is just really further militarization of the police in Canada . Our Canadian police forces have been following this trend for quite some time with the use of body armour , tactical style uniforms , tazers , semi automatic side arms and now the push towards high capacity AR style tactical rifles and semi auto shotguns . At the same time , upper police management has constantly pushed for more severe gun control and restrictions for the average Canadian gun owner . It is very concerning as we already maintain a professional military , why do we need such a heavily armed police presence in our communities , are they there to police our neighbourhoods or to do battle....?
 
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Gunexpert007 said:
It is just really further militarization of the police in Canada . Our Canadian police forces have been following this trend for quite some time with the use of body armour , tactical style uniforms , tazers , semi automatic side arms and now the push towards high capacity AR style tactical rifles and semi auto shotguns . At the same time , upper police management has constantly pushed for more severe gun control and restrictions for the average Canadian gun owner . It is very concerning as we already maintain a professional military , why do we need a second military force with our police departments....?
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Quit thinking so much.... and what's with all the questions?
:)

I'm sure the job could still be done with the old tools but then the cops would look like a bunch of dorks.
 
Nice to see this revamped!
I agree that the role of the shotgun with LE and military will likely be limited to specialty roles in the future. Breaching, less-lethal. With the popularity of 40mm and it's available payloads, I don't see 12ga being used to deliver anything but the aforementioned loads.

It makes sense for a half-century old design to be replaced my something more modern, that is more easily operated.

I think the SBRs are a big step for the police. It's a much more practical tool, than spraying buckshot everywhere. It gives a patrol officer the ability to defeat body armour.
How long did it take for LAPD SWAT to arrive on-scene at the '97 North Hollywood Shootout?

Complaint about "militarization" of police is ridiculous. You want a no- vest wearing cop with a bare leather belt and his .38 six shooter coming to your aid?
I want the people who protect me to be overwhelmingly better equipped than the people they're protecting me against. And I'm willing to pay for it!
 
Police across Canada have moved to a patrol carbine, the issues is not the carbine, but the funds and time for training, just ask one shot tactical, most police carbines in the country will be rocking the VCAS sling.
The plan was to can the 870 shotgun, many have done this.
What we have found In the last 24months is police putting the 870 back into patrol cars, as a second gun, having found that the shotgun has many uses for such things as dog, deer issues ETC, as well as things like doors, locks and a few other issues.
how do we know this??
As Canada,s leading tactical shotgun parts maker, we have been flooded with LEO orders in Canada looking too retro fit plain jane 870s, into something more useful.
The shotgun is a very useful tool, many did not see this until they did not have them.

As for agency using the benelli M4 , that's great, but you cant use an m4 for breaching, as its a semi auto and has no lockout, anyone that has used a real breaching round will understand what i,m talking about.
bbb
 
Gin said:
Nice to see this revamped!
I agree that the role of the shotgun with LE and military will likely be limited to specialty roles in the future. Breaching, less-lethal. With the popularity of 40mm and it's available payloads, I don't see 12ga being used to deliver anything but the aforementioned loads.

It makes sense for a half-century old design to be replaced my something more modern, that is more easily operated.

I think the SBRs are a big step for the police. It's a much more practical tool, than spraying buckshot everywhere. It gives a patrol officer the ability to defeat body armour.
How long did it take for LAPD SWAT to arrive on-scene at the '97 North Hollywood Shootout?

Complaint about "militarization" of police is ridiculous. You want a no- vest wearing cop with a bare leather belt and his .38 six shooter coming to your aid?
I want the people who protect me to be overwhelmingly better equipped than the people they're protecting me against. And I'm willing to pay for it!
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Things must be bad in your hood!
Around here the guy with the shirt,leather belt and .38 will do just fine..... :)

Badboy,
Might as well have a 12 guage in the trunk for sure. There's plenty of room for it and it and they do have the uses you refer to.....plus most of Canada isn't ready for the AR's of Toronto. The 12 gauge has a more traditional look about it for the average Canadian and it's a step up from the sidearm if needed.
 
Can-down said:
Things must be bad in your hood!
Around here the guy with the shirt,leather belt and .38 will do just fine..... :)

Badboy,
Might as well have a 12 guage in the trunk for sure. There's plenty of room for it and it and they do have the uses you refer to.....plus most of Canada isn't ready for the AR's of Toronto. The 12 gauge has a more traditional look about it for the average Canadian and it's a step up from the sidearm if needed.
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Well there were 17 rounds exchanged between armed guards and gunmen in a botched armoured car robbery last night less than 5km away. I'd want more than a .38 if I were responding to that. You can bet the bad guys had semi-auto's. Probably soft armour.
 
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