- Location
- saskatchewan
Info needed on Manlicher Berthier
- Thread starter sasktraveler
- Start date
- Location
- saskatchewan
seen lots of use but not all that bad
Turkey quieted down a whole bunch after Kemal Pasha took over the country and began to drag it 500 years ahead and turn it into a modern secular state. Among other things, the entire Turkish military had to be rebuilt from scratch.
During the First World War, British doctrine regarding Turkish prisoners was quite simple. In the long series of battles from Suez, up through the modern Middle East and to Aleppo, British forces were highly mobile while the Turks were not. The British, however, had no mechanism for guarding and looking after huge numbers of Turkish prisoners. In the end, the decision was taken that, once Johnny Turk had surrendered, he was out of the war. He then was turned loose and told to go home.
His weapons, however, he did not take with him. Turkish rifles were piled in gigantic heaps, doused with gasoline or distillate.... and set afire. The fires were hot enough to reduce the woodwork to ash and to reduce the metalwork to slag-coated iron. By the end of the War, so much Turkish equipment had been so treated that it would have been impossible to rebuild the Turkish military.
To get re-started, Turkey was given quantities of Allied rifles to augment their supplies of German-built equipment which had survived the War. Much of this was refurbed in the late 1930s and forms the pool of "Turk Mausers" which were sold off here, beginning about 30 years ago. These included Turkish Model 1890 Mausers, 1893, 1903 (short-action 98) and German rifles received during the Great War - mostly 1888 Commission rifles and 98s. Earlier surviving Turkish rifles - including the massive quantity of Sniders, Peabodys and black-powder single-shot and 1887 repeater Mausers - were scrapped. Nobody seems to know what became of their 1866 Winchesters, reported at 30,000 units, which were so devastating when used in conjunction with the long-range Peabodys at Plevna.
Among the rifles Turkey was given were a quantity of French Berthiers. This was an early gift, before all of the formal agreements were made, and ostensibly was for use by the Turkish "forestry department". So far, nobody has figured out why a forestry patrol would need such a large quantity of heavy rifles!
In the end, many of the Berthiers were rebuilt into carbines, of which this is one.
Any Berthier Forestry Carbines I have encountered seem to have pretty good barrels and there is no reason why they cannot be shot.
Trade-Ex has the brass and bullets, friend JP on this forum keeps the special 3-round Clips in stock.
BTW, she WILL drop a Moose with 1 round if you do your part and place it well. Might stop a young Tank, too, come to think of it; that is one NASTY cartridge!
Go have fun!
During the First World War, British doctrine regarding Turkish prisoners was quite simple. In the long series of battles from Suez, up through the modern Middle East and to Aleppo, British forces were highly mobile while the Turks were not. The British, however, had no mechanism for guarding and looking after huge numbers of Turkish prisoners. In the end, the decision was taken that, once Johnny Turk had surrendered, he was out of the war. He then was turned loose and told to go home.
His weapons, however, he did not take with him. Turkish rifles were piled in gigantic heaps, doused with gasoline or distillate.... and set afire. The fires were hot enough to reduce the woodwork to ash and to reduce the metalwork to slag-coated iron. By the end of the War, so much Turkish equipment had been so treated that it would have been impossible to rebuild the Turkish military.
To get re-started, Turkey was given quantities of Allied rifles to augment their supplies of German-built equipment which had survived the War. Much of this was refurbed in the late 1930s and forms the pool of "Turk Mausers" which were sold off here, beginning about 30 years ago. These included Turkish Model 1890 Mausers, 1893, 1903 (short-action 98) and German rifles received during the Great War - mostly 1888 Commission rifles and 98s. Earlier surviving Turkish rifles - including the massive quantity of Sniders, Peabodys and black-powder single-shot and 1887 repeater Mausers - were scrapped. Nobody seems to know what became of their 1866 Winchesters, reported at 30,000 units, which were so devastating when used in conjunction with the long-range Peabodys at Plevna.
Among the rifles Turkey was given were a quantity of French Berthiers. This was an early gift, before all of the formal agreements were made, and ostensibly was for use by the Turkish "forestry department". So far, nobody has figured out why a forestry patrol would need such a large quantity of heavy rifles!
In the end, many of the Berthiers were rebuilt into carbines, of which this is one.
Any Berthier Forestry Carbines I have encountered seem to have pretty good barrels and there is no reason why they cannot be shot.
Trade-Ex has the brass and bullets, friend JP on this forum keeps the special 3-round Clips in stock.
BTW, she WILL drop a Moose with 1 round if you do your part and place it well. Might stop a young Tank, too, come to think of it; that is one NASTY cartridge!
Go have fun!
Not to disagree with smellie (who knows more about most things milsurp than just about anyone on the board... )
But I read, or maybe saw a doc, can't remember, that discussed these Forestry Service rifles. IIRC, the rationale behind them was that the Turkish Forestry Service was dealing with a lot of poachers and general bandits, so they needed a bit of a thumper that could reach out to reasonable distances. The Berthier's and 8mm Lebel were useful because they filled this need, but with a cartridge that was largely un-available outside of government storehouses. Which was important because the forestry department workers tended to have a fairly limited life expectancy, and the rifles often ended up in the hands of the paochers and bandits they were intended to be used against. The paochers/bandits didn't tend to keep them, because of the lack of a clear supply of ammo.
- Location
- saskatchewan
great info many thanks
As most people will reload this cartridge it's worth a note that the Turkish forestry carbine was not modified (chamber enlarged to reduce pressure) to shoot the later 1932 designed Ball N ammo.
When you are going to shoot this rifle, just don't shoot the later 1930 "Ball N" ammo(if you can find it) use the original WWI spec Lebel loads.. These are a hoot to shoot.
Better yet, let forgotten weapons show you. the explanation starts a 9:30 ish.
When you are going to shoot this rifle, just don't shoot the later 1930 "Ball N" ammo(if you can find it) use the original WWI spec Lebel loads.. These are a hoot to shoot.
Better yet, let forgotten weapons show you. the explanation starts a 9:30 ish.
I have the Turk carbine as well as the full length rifle. Like the video, the long rifle is marked with and N. I also have a French Musquetoon as well. I have shot Ball N in all three and have no trouble closing the bolts on any of them. I've shot hundreds of rounds of this stuff which was purchased on machine gun clips by the crate. It's good ammo, no hangfires in the stuff I bought from International in 1980.
One thing I can say about all three rifles is that they are a lot more accurate than portrayed by the shooter in the video. He needs to learn better trigger control. It looked to me like he was jerking his trigger rather than squeezing off the shot.
He mention the carbine had a kick. I can verify that.
As smellie says, that round will knock down a moose easily. Back in the early eighties one of my now departed friends and I decided we would see how effective some of the European cartridges were on big game. We already knew what would happen with North American offerings.
All of the cartridges we used from 6.5mm up to 8mm worked very well. Deer, Moose, Elk, Black Bears and a goat fell to one or another of those old war girls. None of them could tell the difference with what they were hit by.
With good ammo, the Turk carbine is very accurate if the bore is very good or better. I had the opportunity to pick through several and the one with an excellent bore was preferred to the one with the pretty stock.
One thing I can say about all three rifles is that they are a lot more accurate than portrayed by the shooter in the video. He needs to learn better trigger control. It looked to me like he was jerking his trigger rather than squeezing off the shot.
He mention the carbine had a kick. I can verify that.
As smellie says, that round will knock down a moose easily. Back in the early eighties one of my now departed friends and I decided we would see how effective some of the European cartridges were on big game. We already knew what would happen with North American offerings.
All of the cartridges we used from 6.5mm up to 8mm worked very well. Deer, Moose, Elk, Black Bears and a goat fell to one or another of those old war girls. None of them could tell the difference with what they were hit by.
With good ammo, the Turk carbine is very accurate if the bore is very good or better. I had the opportunity to pick through several and the one with an excellent bore was preferred to the one with the pretty stock.
That's because when they were brought in, International Firearms had their main warehouse in Canada. If memory serves, the French rifles of any type weren't overly popular in the US at that time. I was lucky and was able to pick through a couple of hundred of them at the warehouse in Montreal. While I was there, there were a couple of fellows that were cherry picking the best rifles for packing and shipping to Virginia for distribution in the States.
There weren't all that many of the carbines. Even then, many of them were unserviceable. They are rarer than most realize.
I like French firearms. They are well made and if the bores are in decent condition they are quite accurate with good ammo.
Now, if only a VG+ I886 would present itself. I have checked out dozens of them but can't bring myself to put down money on one that has been dragged all over the desert by Beau Geste and his bug eyed buddy.
French firearms are boiling with history. Don't believe for a second that French troop were or are not brave fighters. They were stalwart soldiers that suffered from poor leadership and poor conditions during WWI and WWII. Their field officers were as good as any. Their high ranking Generals and their entourage were often in position by rite of birth or entitlement. The Poulu suffered and fought with distinction.
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The French WW 1 ammunition is " Balle D ".
For more information; http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/French Rifles/The 8mm Lebel Cartridge/lebel_cart_us.html
Excerpt from the above;
NOTE
Balle N ammo should never be fired from any Lebel or Berthier rifle unless it has had the chamber reamed to accept the larger neck of the N cartridge. Such weapons are stamped N on top of the barrel, just in front of the receiver and behind the rear sight.
For more information; http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/French Rifles/The 8mm Lebel Cartridge/lebel_cart_us.html
Excerpt from the above;
NOTE
Balle N ammo should never be fired from any Lebel or Berthier rifle unless it has had the chamber reamed to accept the larger neck of the N cartridge. Such weapons are stamped N on top of the barrel, just in front of the receiver and behind the rear sight.
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