Info please : Belgian import "Black Diamond" SxS

D

dreamwaters

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I am considering going to look at a Sxs 12 gauge. I called and got all the info that I could, but don't know how much of this is accurate, so I hoped someone here could comment on this and perhaps add some additional info/value.

It is a Belgian-made "Black Diamond" 12 gauge SxS with 24" barrels. Engraved on the breech. It has a steel butt plate. Double triggers, 2 3/4 chamber. According to the seller, SxS 12s were not being made in the Americas in the 20s, 30s, 40s, so they were imported from elsewhere, including Belgium, and sold under other names. This is all he could offer in terms of age.

Any information/opinions are appreciated, but specifically, I'd be interested in:
-value
-age
-safety (to shoot 2 3/4" lead - this will be a grouse gun for me - no steel)

I am not looking for a gun to be hung on the wall and pulled out for the odd shoot - it will be used as a grouse gun and all that comes with that use, although I do take care of my guns.

Thanks in advance!
-DW
 
well these were imported and sold under trade names, but for the seller to say 12 ga. sxs 's weere not made in the americas in the 20's,30's and 40's is nonsense. ithaca started making the crass model 12 ga. sxs in the 1880's and continued with the lewis model, flues, knickerbocker, minier and NID. which was discontinued in 1948. there were a host of other manufactures as well. i can't find reference to a "black diamond" sxs anywhere. anybody?
 
Thought I smelled BS whenI talked to the guy - which was why I posted the question here! I look forward to more comments if anyone has some info...
-DW
 
Hmmm, guess this really IS a rare shotgun lol! Oh well, I'll still go and take a look. I'm especially interested because I'm looking for a grouse gun - the 24" barrels on this one would suit my alder thickets just fine...
-DW
 
Dreamwaters, I would be very careful when examining this shotgun. It has had the barrels shortened, and it may have had the chambers lengthened. Check the proof marks! External hammers? Damascus barrels? The gun is likely to be much older than you think - certainly no SxS's were imported from Belgium in the 1940's.

Guns like this were imported by the thousands because they were so inexpensive that even after shipping and duty they could be sold for much less than the Ithaca, Parker, Smith, Fox, Lefever, Crescent and other American made SxS's of the era. While high quality Belgian SxS's were (and are) made, almost none of them were sold with names like "Black Diamond".

As a grouse gun for the coverts, you may find that the stock has too much drop and that the chopped barrels do not shoot to point of aim. Buyer beware, and be sure to check the proof marks to ensure that it is not a black powder gun.

Sharptail
 
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sharptail x2 again.JABC, just another belgium clunker.maybe.maybe not.sure take a look at it, but when info on a name and proof marks may not show much. it's hard to tell what your getting. as far as other sxs's. there's plenty to choose from. baikal, remington's spartan line up and a lot of good used upland guns from 12 to 28 ga. from reputable manufacturers and reputable dealers. it'll be cheaper in the long run. good luck
 
Now THIS is the kind of stuff I was looking for - thanks!

If the barrels are 24" is it very likely that they are cut that way?

Also, what are Proof Marks and what am I checking for?

Apparently, the barrels are NOT Damascus, but I have no confidence in the seller's word, since much of what he has told me seems a bit iffy to me...

The hammers are internal.

Overall, I'm not getting a good vibe, so I'll likely keep looking until I see something that I actually recognize!

Thanks again!
-DW
 
if you can see a pattern something similar to a chain link or a swirl then the chances are they are damacus. there was a time when they made fluid steel barrels look damascus because it was thought to be a superior method of making barrels.but it's hard to tell and not worth taking the chance of buying an old clunker and spending your hard earned cash. keep looking. ellwood epps in orillia ont. have 17 pages in sept.'s issue of canadian access to firearms. for example item # 13805 spartan gunworks , new, 20 ga. sxs,walnut stock and forend,4 screw in chokes, 26" bbl's. $504.60. 705-689-5333 or fax 705-689-2279. i'm not agent for ellwood epps, i live 200 miles away, but they have the largest selection i know of right now, some shown on their website. a lot of used items to choose from as well. good luck.
 
If the barrels are 24" is it very likely that they are cut that way?
Click to expand...

Yes, it is highly unlikely that the gun came with 24 inch barrels originally. An examination of the muzzles will likely show no choke. 30 inch barrels were the norm for Belgian SxS's.

Also, what are Proof Marks and what am I checking for?
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Proof marks are stamped onto the barrels by the Proof House after testing. They tell you what the barrels were designed to shoot. See this page:

http://www.gundealersonline.com/firearmid_belgian.asp

You are looking for the lion over the letters P. V. That would indicate proof for smokeless powder. That does not mean that you can run baby magnums through it, but it does mean that smokeless powder shells made to the pressures of the era can be used.

Apparently, the barrels are NOT Damascus
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It can be hard to tell if the barrels have been blued, but if the barrel finish is worn, then the swirl marks of a Damascus or twist barrel should be visible.


Sharptail
 
As a side note, you may find that a 24" gun does not swing smoothly at all. The trend is generally to go with longer barrels. I understand how thick grouse cover can be, and theoretically the short guns have an advantage here, but in reality the trade off isn't worth it to me. If possible, try a short gun out before you buy one.
 
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