INFO PLEASE! TWO VINTAGE .22rf CANADIAN RIFLES

mauser

mauser

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Today the postman delivered a couple of antique .22rf single-shot rifles I won from an online auction in another state. Vintage single-shot .22 rifles and pistols are my first love and I was very happy to get BOTH of these little guys!

First was a Ross 1912. Serial number 16724 in right side of bbl near receiver. It is a straight pull bolt action. Top of receiver marked ROSS RIFLE COMPANY, CANADA, 1912. Slightly below this is the word PATENTED. And, it has what appears to be an unusual "proof mark" on top of bbl near receiver. I can only make out the letters DPC in crossed swords (?), with what may be a crown in the top. Below the P at bottom is another crown and below that a 0. I've not taken time yet to photograph all these markings. Stock appears to have had some unusual work done on it MANY moons ago. Cannot figure what they were trying to achieve. Rear sling swivel was remove and nicely plugged. Butt is beautiful "tiger stripe" grain.

The second gun is marked on top of the barrel, TOBIN ARMS MFG. CO, WOODSTOCK, ONT. CANADA. No other markings visible. I've not taken it out of the stock to check out-of-sight markings. It has a rear sight held by a single bolt in front, NO elevator slot or ANY sign of a height adjustment method of any kind - other than bending the long leaf holding the wide, shallow V sight. It's a rolling block action with NO FIRING "PIN." This function is performed by a solid cam on a pin/slot arrangement. When hammer falls on the back of this cam the whole piece snaps forward to strike the rim of the cartridge. The entire BOTTOM HALF of the breech moves rearward to serve as the extractor. ODDBALL !!! Stock has bad wrist crack, otherwide fairly good condition.

Would appreciate ANY info you guys may have on either or both of these guns. I've learned a little about the Ross, but absolutely nothing about the Tobin. HELP! :confused:

Below are some pics of the two rifles. Thanks in advance for any help. Best regards, ~ ~ ~ mauser

The Ross 1912.

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The Tobin.

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My .22cal. ROSS has a 20 1/2 "barrel. Hooded front sight. no serial #. steel butt plate but with a BRASS PLUG like an ENEIELD .303 for,i presume, an OILER. plain stock,apears to be WALNUT. nothing fancy. SWIVEL on stock and another 2 " ahead of trigger guard.got BOLT thru CGN,years ago, but firing pin broke on first shot. bore is in excellent shape. has a "SCHNABEL"forend, when i got it. Guns were made in ROSSES factory,just outside of QUEBEC CITY, (Actually on the plains of ABRAHAM) where the famous battles were fought. gave my.303ROSS away .But really like this little.22. CHEERS POPS
 
Just looked at the ROSS RIFLE web site on Mc Villans post(Cheers Mc VILLAN)NAVY????? my ross has the butt plate /hooded front site/ rear peep sight in photos and i presume someone probably tried to "CUSTOMIZE " it years past. CHEERS POPS
 
Mauser,

I'm sure that you have seen this already. There is no mention about the .22 but I'm sure you have a fairly rare rifle there. I grew up in Woodstock more than a couple of years ago and never knew that Tobin Arms ever existed until your post (and I'm related to Tobins). I've gone through some older printed material I have on the city with no luck. Why not send off a note to the Woodstock Museum ( www.woodstockmuseum.ca ) and ask them to do some research. I'm sure they would like another question other than why the city has a statue of a cow (Springbank Snow Countess) on the main street (google the countess for more info). Unfortunately I now live several provinces away as I would love to go digging through the archives to help you out. Nothing like a good mystery.

The Tobin Arms Co. manufactured hammer and hammerless sidelock shotguns (12 and 16 ga.) from 1904-1909 in Norwich,Ct. They moved to Woodstock,Ont., Canada and manufactured guns from 1910-1923 when the Tobin Arms Co. surrendered its charter. The guns were continued under the name " G.B.Crandall " for a number of years, some say till the early fifties! Information on these guns is available through the following articles: 1.DGJ (Double Gun Journal)Vol.5 Issue 1(1994) p.47-53 by David J. Noreen 2.DGJ (Double Gun Journal)Vol.8 Issue 1(1997) p.171-176) by David J. Noreen 3.The Canadian Journal 'Arms Collecting' Vol.14,No.1.p.13-29(Feb.1976) Reprint of Catalog No.311.(1911?) 4.The Canadian Journal 'Arms Collecting' Vol.34,No.3 p.75-82 by David J. Noreen (Aug.1996) Serial Numbers go to at least 22,700. I hope this is of some help. Most probably available at local libraries or through 'Museum Restoration Services'(on internet)
 
BOSLEY and SHARPTAIL, good show

:cheers:THIS IS WHY CGN IS SUCH AN IMPORTANT CANADIAN SITE!!!!!!!GREAT INFO AT YOUR FINGER TIPS DAMN fine showing, BOSLEY and SHARPTAIL!!!!!!!!!! POPS
 
Any Further Info?

Sharptail, I was looking over your Tobin website just now. Stole all your Tobin info to go in file with my little .22. I still have not found ANY further info on the little Tobin rifles! Got lots on the Ross, however. Thanks to all.

Your site is all shotgun, but gives me some history on Tobin and his companies. For example, I wasn't aware that his CT business was actually the handiwork of a Canadian. Good background info to go with my rifle.

Your info let me know that if I want to look for ads offering the .22 rifle as a premium for subscription sales, I need to check Rod and Gun Magazines published from 1910 forward. I try to regularly check the US eBay listings and contact sellers of suspicious magazines (there's one listed as Field & Steam Rod and Gun) and ask them to check for one of the ads offering the rifle for subscriptions sold.

Do any of you CGN readers have an idea WHERE I might find one of these magazines for sale? Would greatly appreciate some leads.

I note my pics have gone bye-bye in my original posting. I've changed photo hosts so will have to edit that first post. I'm still interested in getting more Tobin info.

Best regards ~ ~ ~ mauser
 
Ross

Very nice Ross you have there. I have one identical to it and from what I've come up with it is not a cutdown Cadet , but a true "half stocked sporter". It is described in the Ross Rifle Story as having a "half stock with shotgun style butt-plate". Said be have been described in the 1912 Ross brochure, but had not been seen in person by the authors. Others may not agree, but this is my opinion. Rossguy on CGN is an expert and might be able to shed some light. Many Cadets are cracked at the wrist as mine is and with a pitted bore, but often shoot ok anyway. I'll try and post pics of mine later for comparison.Again, nice find.
Geoff in BC,Canada.

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Mauser,

I imagine your Ross is a cut down, sporterized. I am basing this on the markings you describe which appear to be Dominion of Canada military acceptance proofs.

I have the Ross 1914 Catalogue in front of me right now and the cadet sporter doesn't appear to have a curved buttplate. It also appears that sporter Rosses from this time did not have a sling swivel in the buttstock at all.

The original price for a Ross .22 Sporting Rifle was $14.00

PS: If any Ross cadet or sporting rifle owners wish to sell their rifles, I need a Ross Cadet or .22 Sporter for parts to restore this rifle:

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Ross Cadet

My belief that Mauser's and mine are factory done is because the butt-plates appear same, as does one that Joe.Salter had for sale awhile ago for $3,000! (just kidding), think was around $495.
"The Ross Rifle Story" page 48 goes on to describe such a rifle as "having a tapered forend and shotgun style butt-plate". That being said, the more I read this book the more confused I become. Anyway, with mine that makes three examples with same buttplate which leads me to believe these left the factory this way IMHO.
Cheers
Geoff


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longbranch* said:
My belief that Mauser's and mine are factory done is because the butt-plates appear same, as does one that Joe.Salter had for sale awhile ago for $3,000! (just kidding), think was around $495.
"The Ross Rifle Story" page 48 goes on to describe such a rifle as "having a tapered forend and shotgun style butt-plate". That being said, the more I read this book the more confused I become. Anyway, with mine that makes three examples with same buttplate which leads me to believe these left the factory this way IMHO.
Cheers
Geoff
Click to expand...

Thanks for the pics. The only thing that convinced me otherwise was the apparent military proofs and the hole he said was filled on the buttstock. Perhaps someone swapped stocks a while ago?

Are there any other markings on your Ross .22 Sporter?

This is just a theory - does anyone have any civillian Rosses in .303 or .280 with dominion markings on them? This might be just a standard proof marking that the British put on all rifles civillian and military. We were, after all, part of the empire.
 
Cadet

Here's pic from my Cadet I posted. Shows usual proof. Note also that mine and Mauser's are commercial contract rifles due to serial number on barrel. This doesnt of course prove they are factory sporters, only that were "commercial" sale guns.
I'll try and find pic of that one Salter had awhile ago.
Cheers
Geoff
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Thanks Longbranch. That looks to be the marking that the original poster was describing. I believe that to be a Dominion of Canada proof marking - Perhaps he does have an original sporter that someone put a swivel on and then decided otherwise!
 
Cadet

Mine has the usual swivel that screws under receiver area but was never one on the butt. I removed buttplate once which shows hole for cleaning kit like military version which leads me to believe sporters or as Ross describes as "half stocked" rifles could have used rejected military stocks which were converted to sporter stocks. I dunno, I do know that its unlikely three examples would have same style buttplate.
While on the subject of Cadets, about 1/3 to half the Cadets I've seen had been broken at the wrist area at one time. My theory to this is it's a design flaw or weakness around the safety area milling of the stock. One good drop or "tap" on the butt and crack-city. Again, just a theory.
Geoff
 
Info Update

Received in mail today an issue of ROD AND GUN IN CANADA dated September 1917. Found the Tobin rifle in an ad from the magazine. It's also mentioned in a full-page ad the magazine ran in this issue listing all the various gifts they had for folks wanting to sell subscriptions for them.

Note that both Tobin and the magazine publisher were BOTH located in Woodstock, Ontario at that time.

Below is a photo of the ad showing the little Tobin .22rf single-shot.

My thanks to CGN Forums and a regular reader up in Whitby, Ontario for leading me to this great find.

Best regards from "The Gunshine State" ~ ~ ~ mauser

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UPDATE and MORE QUESTIONS

You contributors to CGN have been a great help to me for learning about my little Tobin rifle! And I certainly want to thank all of you for your info. After reading Sharptail's posting 9/27/07, giving a great timetable of the Tobin Company's move from Connecticut to Ontario, and the company's subsequent sale to another Canadian entrepenuer, G.B.Crandall, he kinda' threw me off a bit.

I first ASSUMED (incorrectly) that Crandall - probably in the throes of trying to save a failing company - contacted the local Woodstock publisher of Rod And Gun In Canada, W.J.Taylor, and made a deal to produce the little, cheapie .22rf rifle. Perhaps Crandall was banking on the apparent success of the Michigan gunmaker, Hamilton Rifle Co., in selling various product manufacturers, on using his Tobin .22s as a lure for young boys to earn themselves a much coveted rifle during hard times.

NOTE: that the time lines Sharptail outlined belie my assumption! According to his information, Tobin surrendered their charter in 1921, and he further states that G.B.Crandall continued operations until 1930.

The date of my ad offering the Tobin rifle is dated 1917. This would indicate the deal with Taylor Publishing was made PRIOR to Crandall's takeover! So, with no other info on a starting date for the offering of these rifles, we have no idea why they are not at least mentioned in any of the existing, surviving Tobin catalogs or ads. So, they're still a mystery.

At least we now KNOW they were a true TOBIN enterprise, and not an act of desperation from a buyout artist!

And I'm still searching for info on them. And, will have to get back for updates and so forth on the little Ross rifle.

Thanks again for all of your help! Much appreciated...

Best regards ~ ~ ~ mauser
 
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