inherited shotguns

kens

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I just inherited 4 shotguns and wonder if anyone can help me in tracking information/values.

First, a W. Morse & Co. London Fine Twist, SS, 10 gauge, 3 in., external hammers ornate and curled that pivot from the side. Numbers 14 and 15 stamped on the underside of the barrels with crossed swords on either side of the numbers as well as a batwing type proof mark that could be the outline of a state or county or company logo. There is an L or a 7 stamped on the left barrel nearer the receiver end. There is an S.D stamped on the end of the tang that fits into the receiver (closest to the receiver end). On the receiver, under the barrels there is a 7 or L stamped on the right side and another logo type stamp on each side of the receiver under the where the barrels sit when attached. Straight stock, nicelly checkered, double triggers, quite a lot of engraving on the receiver and bracets that mount the receiver to the stock. Firing pins on a downward angle of about 30 degrees through the receiver. Barrel release is a 2 1/2 in long, double curved arm on the left side of the receiver.

Second is a SS., 10 ga, double trigger, with W. Richards stamped on the side of the tangs that mount the receiver on to the side of the stock. Very little engraving, pistol grip stock with some checkering. On the receiver under the left barrel stamp is BELGIUM D D, under the right barrel is 19 M* and a logo that looks like a diamond with a handle on it. Curled but short external hammers, pivoted on the side, firing pins run through the receiver at a slight downward angle. On the top of the rib stamp is LAMINATED STEEL. Underside of left barrel is stamped with an oval with the letters LEG and a * inside the oval, the same diamond shaped mark the M* and BELGIUM. Underside of the right barrel is stamped D 19 D * 189.

Both SS came to me via family living in Nebraska. Have been in the family for 70 years or so and beyond that we don't know.

Third is a FRIED, KRUPP, H.G. ESSEN, 12 ga OU. Double trigger, 3 in.. Other stamps on the top barrel are SPECIAL-GEWEHR-LAUF-STAHL and 3 interlocking Olympic type rings. Serial number stamped on the underside of the lower barrel is 279894 there are numerous other small stamps on the lower left side of the top barrel a circle with a 12 in it, an oval with Suhl in it, a 13/1, a 70. This gun came to me via a long time family friend who emigrated to Canada from Denmark in the early 60's.

Fourth is a Model 12 Winchester 12 ga which was bought new in the early 60's just before Winchester quit making them. I know the Model 12 very well but since this one is in like new condition I was wondering what the value might be.

Appreciate any leads anyone might have about these shotguns.
 
Kens, an interesting bunch of guns. I do not know anything about the Morse and can provide no help there. Pictures of the proof marks would help. Side lever hammer guns are a personal favourite of mine.

The W. Richatds, I am sorry to say, has a bad reputation as an inexpensive knock off trying to capitalize on the good name of the English firm of Westley Richards. A brief explanation is here:

http://gunshop.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000003

With laminated steel barrels I would be very leery of shooting it, even with low pressure loads.

The German U/O is an interesting gun. Krupp steel barrels are among the best to be had. The "olympic rings" indicate a high grade of steel. I have never seen a junky German gun. Be they plain or ornate, they all have good engineering and materials, and usually good craftsmanship. Sometimes they can be a little heavy, and you may have to play with the stock dimensions a bit, but you have a nice gun there. I would like to see pictures.

One interesting note - you indicate that it is a 3 inch chambered gun, but the "70" stamped on the barrel indicates that it was made as a 2 3/4 inch (70 mm) gun. Have you measured the chambers? If they are 3 inches, then the chambers have been opened up, and measuring the wall thickness at the front of the chamber would be a good idea.

Somewhere on the barrels or action flats will be a date - of - proof stamp. It will be in the form of a number. For example, "1057" would be October,1957 or "361" would be March, 1961.

Finally, I think a 12 gauge Model 12 in like new condition should bring in $700 or so these days. I am no expert with values, so please take my guesstimate with a grain of salt.

Sharptail
 
Thanks very much for the tips. The proof is 338 so March 1938. The gun has been shot a lot but it is in excellent condition, a very fine piece of precision gunsmithing and manufacturing. Lower firing pin shows substantial wear on the hammer end so if you know where parts might be available that would be apppreciated. The chambers are deeper than my other shotguns but I will get a more accurate measurement to be sure. I do not believe this has been opened up, I have known the gun and who had it since the early 60's.

I would still like to know a value.

You are right about the W Richards of course. The Morse has no other proof marks that I can find but I am continuing to clean it up. The swords are likely maces.
 
Don't know where you are, but a gunsmith who can be trusted with work on a quality European gun like this one is Jason Spencer at Gunco in Nepean. If a new firing pin is needed, it would probably be necessary to have one made.
There is a market for vintage doubles. Perhaps if you could post pictures it would help.
 
Very few smiths are around that I would trust to work on nice turn of the century stuff for restorative purposes. Jason at Gunco is certainly one of them ;) Bill Leepers is another (if you can talk him into it!).

For future reference though, you shouldn't be double-posting this here and in the BP forum. It's against the rules ;)
 
I suspect that the Fried. Krupp mark refers only to the barrel steel, not the gunmaker. There may have been a gunmaker of that name in Essen, but the only references I could find are to the Krupp steel works. Regarded as first class steel at the time.
 
SS W. Morse photos

W. Morse & Co. London Fine Twist, SS, 12 gauge, 2 3/4 in., external hammers ornate and curled that pivot from the side. Numbers 14 and 15 stamped on the underside of the barrels with crossed swords on either side of the numbers as well as a batwing type proof mark that could be the outline of a state or county or company logo. There is an L or a 7 stamped on the left barrel nearer the receiver end. There is an S.D stamped on the end of the tang that fits into the receiver (closest to the receiver end). On the receiver, under the barrels there is a 7 or L stamped on the right side and another logo type stamp on each side of the receiver under the where the barrels sit when attached. Straight stock, nicelly checkered, double triggers, quite a lot of engraving on the receiver and bracets that mount the receiver to the stock. Firing pins on a downward angle of about 30 degrees through the receiver. Barrel release is a 2 1/2 in long, double curved arm on the left side of the receiver.

DSCN0385.jpg


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