Interesting German Capture 91/30

skirsons

skirsons

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Just picked up this German Capture 91/30 from a fellow CGNer.

It's one of the most interesting for me because it has Latvian provenance.

It's a 1938 Tula, all matching except for the bolt and has the marking F.L.P. Mi.

No German birds of any kind.

FLP Mi stands for Feuer Löschen Polizei, Mitau

Mitau is the old German name for the city west of Riga called Jelgava. Bubba has sanded the stock. Looks like a post war stock from the eustacheons but it has an arsenal repair too which I find puzzling on a post war stock... unless it was refurbed more than once. It is a refurb no doubt as it is matching but has some Tula and some Izhevsk parts all stamped matching.

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From what I can remember off the top of my head those sling slot estruceons came into play sometime in '44. Would love to see some more pictures!
 
Coyote Ugly said:
How do you know this one is real, or unreal?
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When I grab it my hand doesn't go right through it like an apparition.

FLP Mi (Fire Extinguishing Police) markings have never been faked to my knowledge. Usually fakers use German eagles / waffenampts.

I DID keep the M44 if that's what you're alluding to.
 
Yes but is that all it has for markings - F.L.P. Mi ? Looks like just a regular metal stamping set and a chimpanzee could do that. Being claimed Nazi, you just never know with all the faking going on, past and present. What does Gunboards say?
 
Coyote Ugly said:
Yes but is that all it has for markings - F.L.P. Mi ? Looks like just a regular metal stamping set and a chimpanzee could do that. Being claimed Nazi, you just never know with all the faking going on, past and present. What does Gunboards say?
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Its one of the most bizarre fonts I've ever seen actually. If you can find a metal stamping set with letters shaped this oddly I will eat my hat. This is a better shot (albeit of a different rifle). The fonts are strange.

I think these dies were hand made for the FLP in Riga and Jelgava.

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Interesting 91/30. I have never seen this marking before so I am trying to make sense of it.

It seems the marking is known to be from the "Fire Extinguishing Police" in Latvia (thank you 7.62x54r.net!). Perhaps this rifle was issued to a guard who watched over the fire hall or police hall or perhaps was out on patrol in the city ? On that note, it would be very interesting if you were able to dig up some period pictures of Latvian police forces using a 91/30 just like yours.

I am curious, how do you know it is German capture ?

How it ended up in the massive Soviet refurbishment program after WW 2 is beyond me.

Still, a very neat find for a Mosin/Red Rifle collector.

Love that pre war Tula dated receiver by the way :D.

Thanks for sharing.
 
Nabs said:
I am curious, how do you know it is German capture ?
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The F L P Mi marking stands for German words as I stated in the first post. I also gave the translation which works out to "Fire Extinguishing (Loschen) Police Mitau"

If the Latvians had marked it under Russian occupation it probably would have either been in Latvian or Russian language. Latvians would have called it Jelgava. The Russians would have called it Mitau probably but in their own alphabet and not used the German "FLP"
 
skirsons said:
The F L P Mi marking stands for German words as I stated in the first post. I also gave the translation which works out to "Fire Extinguishing (Loschen) Police Mitau"

If the Latvians had marked it under Russian occupation it probably would have either been in Latvian or Russian language. Latvians would have called it Jelgava. The Russians would have called it Mitau probably but in their own alphabet and not used the German "FLP"
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Say Skirsons can you provide some background on what the Fire Extinguishing Police were? What was their purpose, organization, history etc. Was this a paramilitary organiztion created by the Germans after their occupation of Latvia or di it already exists prior to the German or Soviet occupation?

Anyways its an interesting marking and nice addition to your collection. Thanks for sharing.
 
fugawi said:
Say Skirsons can you provide some background on what the Fire Extinguishing Police were? What was their purpose, organization, history etc. Was this a paramilitary organiztion created by the Germans after their occupation of Latvia or di it already exists prior to the German or Soviet occupation?

Anyways its an interesting marking and nice addition to your collection. Thanks for sharing.
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"Feuerlöschpolizei"

Fire police from 1938 was the official name for the fire department , as one of the police subordinate organ of the State in the National Socialism certain time of the German state .

The term fire police is not to be confused with the term fire-fighting police, although both the history of the fire department in the era of National Socialism are. The term fire-fighting police on December 1933 with the Prussian law on the fire being in the country of Prussia as a term imposed for firefighters and in 1938 with the Empire Fire Act by the term 'fire police're relieved.

By 23 November 1938 adopted the "Law on the fire-fighting activities' (Empire Fire Act and the implementing of the Reich Minister of the Interior on October 24, 1939) was withdrawn from the countries of the competence for fire fighting purposes. Although had to municipalities (cities and towns) will continue all costs for personnel, equipment, accommodation, etc., carry the Dienstaufsicht however, went to the Reich. The firefighters were under as part of the Order Police Reich Leader SS and Chief of German Police in the Reich Ministry of the Interior .

The law was an element of the preparations of the Nazi state to a coming war, and should ensure the basis for a nationwide uniform and effective damage prevention, particularly among the expected enemy air raids. The major cities in existing brigades were part of the Order Police and the officers and men were given police ranks, each with the words "the Fire Police" provided (for example, the fire police sergeant).

Beginning in 1939, firefighters received the fire police (firefighters, fire officers and special units / regiments) green police uniforms. When the volunteer fire departments continue to the blue uniforms were worn. A special feature this were purple strands and tucks. July 1940 have been adjusted to the rank insignia of the fire police, all the fire engines were only delivered in a spruce green police paint. The volunteer firefighters lost their status as clubs and associations, provided they were not already setting up the community (for example, in Baden, Württemberg and Bavaria) and were auxiliary police force.
 
Agreed here. It's a Latvian rifle given to them or captured by them during WW2, then re-captured by the Russians at some point and recycled back into normal Russian supply system. Nice find. As with most Rooskie refurbs, probably only the barrelled action are original to when it was in Latvian service.
 
Claven2 said:
Agreed here. It's a Latvian rifle given to them or captured by them during WW2, then re-captured by the Russians at some point and recycled back into normal Russian supply system. Nice find. As with most Rooskie refurbs, probably only the barrelled action are original to when it was in Latvian service.
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True the stock and receiver are clearly of different eras in the history of the Mosin Nagant. As I said the factory mark of the receiver and trigger guard are totally different with the receiver being Tula and the guard being Izhevsk.

Interestingly enough it has the same 'x' marking found on RC98s. I don't know if that is a refurb mark or a foreign "capture" mark.
 
Nabs said:
Very interesting read. I still find it strange that a fire fighting unit, volunteer or not, would still be issued a rifle.
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It's mazing the "units" that received arms in Nazi Germany. For example, post office workers were largely armed, as were railway workers. Late in the war, many of these services were conscripted into the volkstuurm and expected to fight alongside the Wehrmacht near the bitter end.
 
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