IPSC classic 45 acp major loads
- Thread starter Motoc55
- Start date
In 4 different 1911's over 30 years of shooting IPSC, I've found that the 200 gr SWC feeds as reliably as the 230 gr RN.
However, I've also found it difficult to source jacketted 200 gr SWC, whereas they are easiy to find in 230 gr RN. Therefore for shooting matches I only use 230 gr jacketted RN (with the caveat that I mean "nowadays"... I've shot hundreds of matches with 200 gr lead SWC, but once you go jacketted in a match, you'll never go back to peering through lead smoke). But to keep costs down, I'll practise with 200 gr lead SWC.
-ivan-
p.s. I rarely shoot the 1911 in 45 anymore, but the above applies to those occasions that I do. In competition: 40 is the way to go. In practice, 9mm is more economical.
Simple:
40 = major
9 = minor
People keep saying "If you're shooting all A's, it's ok to shoot minor". I'd like to meet the person who is shooting all A's (and I wish he would come to an IPSC match).
I've won the Canadian Nationals twice in Classic division, and I'm simply not good enough to shoot minor, because I need the points, and minor penalizes me too much. Yes: I recognize that I have to reload the gun more often in Major vs Minor, but my math says I still come out ahead, since you don't need an extra reload on every stage.
Others will say that with the lesser recoil that you can shoot the 1911 in 9mm faster than the 40. I disagree. I've experimented with both, and my times are the same with both guns (on stages where an extra reload with the 40 are not required).
Don't get me wrong: I still own a 9mm Classic gun, and if the match copy is biased enough, I'll shoot a match with it.... but it will take a particularly outrageous match copy to make me do that.
-ivan-
You can shoot 40 in minor with 10 rounds. I heard that Tripp Research makes a magasine that will hold 10 rounds of 40 that will fit in the box. You'll score minor and your only concern would be to develop a load just a tad over 125 with .40 S&W.
I shot with Ivan and a few other Classic shooters at the Nationals, 8 vs 10 rounds in a mag only seemed to mean slightly different stage plans. Out of the 16 stages I think there were only 2 or so where they were forced to do an extra reload which was always possible on the move. IMO the huge advantage of .40 is in brass & bullets, which makes it much more affordable to shoot.
Actually, I use Tripp System mags........I load 8 rounds and swap springs for Major PF, but mostly load 10 for 40 Minor PF. Best of both worlds, once you get the gun dialed in to cycle smoothly (and my 40 is easier to shoot than my wifes 9mm USPSA).....and it makes bigger holes 
I have been deliberating with the Classic Maj/Min, and no matter how I know I drop points on Min, the Mag changes during a stationery stage or tight strings could cost a couple seconds on a med/long course of fire. That is a general calc. that I have observed, and is by no means a scientific number ....
But saying that, just suppose you are hitting 70% A's, and 30% C's or so...D's are problematic anyway, but the theory remains the same.
IF there are 14 targets, say 10x2 are A hits, and 4x2 are C hits.
IF Minor, equals 116 pts, and if Major, equals 124 pts.
Now say that course of fire was done in 18 seconds with 10round mags, but due to the structure, was 19 seconds with the extra reloads.
Hit factor would be 6.44 with minor, and 6.53 with major.
BUT, if your reloads work out to be 2 seconds longer, then the major hit factor would be 6.20.
Obviously hitting a higher percentage of C's in the above figure would really mean you should be running major. IF I get to the point (and I am going into full blown practice mode in September for next year) where I am 85%+ A's, then Minor is the obvious choice......
So it all comes down to stage design and reload speeds (and we all know those little single stack mags can be a bugger to slap home quickly). I don't mind swapping ammo loads, so I bring major and minor ammo, and a set of springs, and walk through/watch the courses of fire before signing in with a power declaration. I likely won't do that next year, but as I'm fairly new, it helps me dissect the stages.......
Apologize for the rambling.............
....But saying that, just suppose you are hitting 70% A's, and 30% C's or so...D's are problematic anyway, but the theory remains the same.
IF there are 14 targets, say 10x2 are A hits, and 4x2 are C hits.
IF Minor, equals 116 pts, and if Major, equals 124 pts.
Now say that course of fire was done in 18 seconds with 10round mags, but due to the structure, was 19 seconds with the extra reloads.
Hit factor would be 6.44 with minor, and 6.53 with major.
BUT, if your reloads work out to be 2 seconds longer, then the major hit factor would be 6.20.
Obviously hitting a higher percentage of C's in the above figure would really mean you should be running major. IF I get to the point (and I am going into full blown practice mode in September for next year) where I am 85%+ A's, then Minor is the obvious choice......
So it all comes down to stage design and reload speeds (and we all know those little single stack mags can be a bugger to slap home quickly). I don't mind swapping ammo loads, so I bring major and minor ammo, and a set of springs, and walk through/watch the courses of fire before signing in with a power declaration. I likely won't do that next year, but as I'm fairly new, it helps me dissect the stages.......
Apologize for the rambling.............
I'm glad to see that you (RGC) are using logic to figure this out.
I'll only add 2 variables to your calculations:
1) There are 2 kinds of reloads, moving and static.
2) Not every stage has extra reloads for shooting major
Therefore add into your calculations:
- a quesstimate as to the percentage of stages that have an extra static (ie: standing) reload. (and figure out how long it takes you to do that standing reload)
- a percentage of stages that have an extra moving reload (again: figure out how much time this adds... it'll be considerably less than a static reload, but it's still more time).
- a percentage of stages that have no extra reloads (these are suprisingly common, as you'll see a lot of 6,6,6 or 8,8,8 stages or stages with 9 or less rounds)
Next: remember in your calculations that in minor you loose points on EVERY stage, whereas in major you loose time in only SOME stages. So your total calculation is for a match, not a stage.
... and you are absolutely correct that if you can get your A count high enough: then it's a no-brainer: minor is the winner in this debate. However, don't penalize yourself by shooting minor when you have not yet got your A percentage high enough (that's where I'm at today).
Also: as Sean H. pointed out elsewhere, the fact that there is no hard-and-fast answer to the Classic "major vs minor" question, this means that it's a good thing. It gives options to people to explore the game and see what works best for them.
-ivan-
I'll only add 2 variables to your calculations:
1) There are 2 kinds of reloads, moving and static.
2) Not every stage has extra reloads for shooting major
Therefore add into your calculations:
- a quesstimate as to the percentage of stages that have an extra static (ie: standing) reload. (and figure out how long it takes you to do that standing reload)
- a percentage of stages that have an extra moving reload (again: figure out how much time this adds... it'll be considerably less than a static reload, but it's still more time).
- a percentage of stages that have no extra reloads (these are suprisingly common, as you'll see a lot of 6,6,6 or 8,8,8 stages or stages with 9 or less rounds)
Next: remember in your calculations that in minor you loose points on EVERY stage, whereas in major you loose time in only SOME stages. So your total calculation is for a match, not a stage.
... and you are absolutely correct that if you can get your A count high enough: then it's a no-brainer: minor is the winner in this debate. However, don't penalize yourself by shooting minor when you have not yet got your A percentage high enough (that's where I'm at today).
Also: as Sean H. pointed out elsewhere, the fact that there is no hard-and-fast answer to the Classic "major vs minor" question, this means that it's a good thing. It gives options to people to explore the game and see what works best for them.
-ivan-
"Next: remember in your calculations that in minor you loose points on EVERY stage, whereas in major you loose time in only SOME stages. So your total calculation is for a match, not a stage.
... and you are absolutely correct that if you can get your A count high enough: then it's a no-brainer: minor is the winner in this debate. However, don't penalize yourself by shooting minor when you have not yet got your A percentage high enough (that's where I'm at today)."
100% situation and in 110% agreement!
Getting into serious training, and focus is 90% "A"'s. Most of the upper 25 percentile Classic shooters round my parts are using minor pf 1911's (9mm mainly, and I've seen a 45ACP minor....). So all things being equal, its an equal competition. But, maybe major will give me a bit of an edge until I get to 85% A hits or so......the only issue I have is getting used to going from 172 pf to the 134 pf of my 40 loads.....
Good stuff Ivan! I will be at Nationals next year in BC in Classic (wife too)!!
... and you are absolutely correct that if you can get your A count high enough: then it's a no-brainer: minor is the winner in this debate. However, don't penalize yourself by shooting minor when you have not yet got your A percentage high enough (that's where I'm at today)."
100% situation and in 110% agreement!
Getting into serious training, and focus is 90% "A"'s. Most of the upper 25 percentile Classic shooters round my parts are using minor pf 1911's (9mm mainly, and I've seen a 45ACP minor....). So all things being equal, its an equal competition. But, maybe major will give me a bit of an edge until I get to 85% A hits or so......the only issue I have is getting used to going from 172 pf to the 134 pf of my 40 loads.....
Good stuff Ivan! I will be at Nationals next year in BC in Classic (wife too)!!
If you want to look around at what others are shooting in this Division, take a look south of the border at the results in Single Stack division in USPSA (it's close enough to our Classic division to be meaningful).
At the 2013 Single Stack Nationals 89 of the top 100 shot Major, and one of those 11 that shot minor didn't want to (ie: problems with chronographing).
If Major is good enough for Rob Leatham, it's good enough for me.
-ivan-
At the 2013 Single Stack Nationals 89 of the top 100 shot Major, and one of those 11 that shot minor didn't want to (ie: problems with chronographing).
If Major is good enough for Rob Leatham, it's good enough for me.
-ivan-
