Is a K31 more accurate than a Swedish Mauser?

[Ganderite]

Find out on 26 July at Winona Range.

The ORA is hosting another fun shoot at Winona (the DND range in Grismby) on Saturday.

CGNrs are welcome to come and shoot whatever they want to play with. I am bring my Mosin Nagant sniper rifle. I know there will be some SKSs, a Garand, a few M14s, some Ar-15s and a K31.

We shoot at 100, 200 and 300 yards. You need 120 rounds of ammo, minimum, a rifle and ear protection. If you want to shoot your SKS at 100 and your Swedish Mauser at 200 and your AR15 at 300, that is cool.

Bottles of wine for prizes.

Set up and registration at 7:30. If you miss the safety briefing the RO won't let you shoot, so please don't be late.

I found that 660 Winston Road, Grimsby in your GPS will lead you to the range gate.

 

[John Sukey]

I wouldn't want either one aimed at me!

 

[Phat Eagle]

Look forward to the results! Let us know!

 

[grelmar]

If I was a betting man, I would put my $$ on....

Whichever rifle happened to be in the hands of the better shooter

 

[buffdog]

.
If you are expecting some "Magic Formula" for determining accuracy of one make/model of rifle against another, you are going to be very disappointed. Individual rifles can show great accuracy, or shoot shotgun type groups. There are so many variables that it almost boggles them mind.

In real life, you can have two rifles made by the same manufacturer, one after the other, shooting the same ammunition, and get highly different results. I shoot both the Swede and the Swiss, and I have found that there are good ones, and bad ones, within each model. When I was shooting targets seriously, a Lee Enfield or SMLE that shot two inch groups, day in and day out, under any conditions was prized like the Crown Jewels. Consistency in an individual rifle was what you looked for.

Ammunition was issued from one lot number, and everyone fired the same ammunition for the Match. The next match, days or weeks later, would usually have a different batch of ammunition, so if your rifle shot two inch groups with ALL ammunition, then you would WIN MATCHES. A consistent rifle could do this.

Something like comparing apples and oranges.

 

[vrex]

I'm planning on being there this Saturday with my K31.

 

[HK45auto]

K31 with "surplus" ammo in the hands of a good shooter with even better eyes!!!

 

[buffdog]

K31 with "surplus" ammo in the hands of a good shooter with even better eyes!!!

Although I like the K-31 for it's accuracy, I just happen to have a few Swedes (maybe 20 or so,) that might take exception to that statement. Tinman 204 has a m/96 Prize rifle that I sold him, and he makes sub 2 inch groups at 200 yards with open sights.

Unfortunately, this year, although I intended to attend the Winona shoots, I had to go back to Manitoba for personal reasons. Perhaps next year we will see what 74 year old eyes and a Swedish Mauser can do at Winona.
.

 

[bearhunter]

Well, there are quite a few surprisingly good shooters out there.

I saw something similar to Ganderite's project going on last spring April 2013, between half a dozen fellows.

We all had a hundred bucks on our rifles and yes, we were allowed to use handloads.

Each of us had a different rifle issued by 6 different nations.

I had a Kar98 BYF 42 chambered in 7.92x57, the other rifles were M41 Carcano in 6.5x52, 7.62x54R M91/30, M1 Garand 30-06 made by Springfield, Mas 36 in 7.5x54 and a 1950 No4 MkI* Longbranch in 303 Brit.

All of the shooters were very familiar with all of the rifles and were allowed to pick the rifle they wanted to shoot as long as it hadn't already been claimed. We drew cards from a hat to pick shooting order and of course claim to a rifle.

By the way, I supplied all of the rifles along with ammo loaded for each rifle I knew they liked. I wanted to test some others in the mix as well, such as the Swede Mauser, K31 Swiss and a 1908 Brazilian Mauser. I had the rifles and ammo but not enough shooters and time was limited.

I can attest to the condition of all the rifles used in the bet. All were in excellent condition and all shoot consistently into sub 2moa groups with the ammo they like.

We shot one group of 5 counting shots and allowed 2 sighters at each distance. We shot at 100 yds, 200yds and 300 yds.

Each rifle had a note book with it that gave hold over instructions for each range and if applicable rear sight settings if the shooter chose to use them. All cartridges were loaded with full metal jacket bullets that were issued in the fourties to each rifle. Velocities were as close as I could get them to suggested factory velocities of the issue ammo.

All shots were off the elbows on the bench. Temps were around 15C and sunny. The only restriction we put on ourselves was 30 seconds per shot. We had a wind up timer that we set for 210 seconds before the alarm went off to stop shooting. No one needed all of the time allotted to get their counting rounds on target.

By the way, other than the first two fouling shots previous to starting the match, no one used ranging shots on any of the targets. They knew the ranging notes were good and trusted my handloads would match. They preferred to use the extra time for sighting and flinch control.

One of the biggest mistakes shooters make during timed shoots is pushing themselves to hard and shooting a flinch, even though they have time to stop and start over rather than pull the trigger.

This only comes about with self training and experience.

OK, the results. I placed third and got my hundred bucks back. The fellow shooting the Mas 36 placed first and the fellow shooting the M41 Carcano placed second.

Now from what I can remember, everyone shot sub 2 moa at all ranges. Not bad considering we all have 60+ year old eyes but we also wear triplex lensed glasses. All of the groups were close enough that we had to measure them to get verifiable winners.

If we hadn't made the stakes so high, we likely would have been able to get other shooters for the other three rifles. If we do it again, I will take that into account. As it is, in just slightly less than a year, two of the shooters likely won't see next Christmas. I could use all sorts of expletives to describe Cancer but I don't think I will have to. I will miss these fine fellows. We have been good friends for over 30 years.

Anyway, next time we shoot, it will depend on how the shooters toes are crossed or how they hold their mouth. The rifles were all good consistent shooters and very closely matched at all the ranges we shot. I don't think a well trained trooper with a rifle in excellent condition with good ammo would have been under matched against any of his opponents as long as he/she could stay calm enough to take the time to aim at their target of opportunity.

 

[cantom]

Sorry about your 2 friends Bearhunter.

Great info otherwise. MAS won, Carcano second...hummpph...

Where did the 50 LB come in? Or actually you said they were all extremely close.

 

[Sw. Mauserman]

All I can say is this: I can do with an M96, even with the B model, what I was unable to do with any other rifle with iron sights . It is a wondeful bite. You start with a Carl Gustav, then you want the Oberndorf, and of course you move to the Husky. This is how I ended up with 13 of that master piece of accuracy and craftmanship that is the M96 Swedish Mauser

 

[Ganderite]

I saw something similar to Ganderite's project going on last spring April 2013, between half a dozen fellows.

We all had a hundred bucks on our rifles and yes, we were allowed to use handloads.

Each of us had a different rifle issued by 6 different nations.


All of the shooters were very familiar with all of the rifles and were allowed to pick the rifle they wanted to shoot as long as it hadn't already been claimed. We drew cards from a hat to pick shooting order and of course claim to a rifle.





OK, the results. I placed third and got my hundred bucks back. The fellow shooting the Mas 36 placed first and the fellow shooting the M41 Carcano placed second.

I would have bet $100 these rifles would have placed last.

I enjoy developing loads for these old rifles and shooting them. The Vintage course of fire is perfect to see how a rifle performs. My old eyes don't work well with open sights, but I should at least try my Swede. I got a Scout scope for the K31 so I can do it justice.

 

[samsplacci71]

I own a full length Swede M96 (29.1" barrel) and M96 sporter at 26". I also own a K31. I was all gung ho about these these with issued sights until I tried my handloads in my 1945 Ishapore SMLE...I never loaded for 303 before but had the dies and 1x fired brass plus 174gr 3.105 Hornady HPBT, using 42gr of Hybrid 100v powder....to great effect 2 weeks ago at Silverdale. So I am not surprised by beahunter's experience with the old war horses and handloads. Ganderite, it you have a place to shoot, I'd love to bring up my milsurps for you to shoot with handloads!

cheers, Marc

 

[Tinman204]

The K31 Vs Swede M96 debate is a good one. I spend most of my time testing handloads and shooting them out of surplus rifles. Basically I'm an accuracy nerd. No scopes for me either, I'll get scopes when my young eyes get old.

Checking my notebook with all of my accuracy tests here's what I've recorded at 200 yards off of a rest.

My bone stock mint m96 with handloads will do 1.5" groups on most days.

I've shot 2 K31's (one was buffdogs, other was my brothers) both are 1 moa rifles if I remember correctly.

My Finn m91 mosin will do an honest 1 moa some days, others she does 2 moa @ 200 yards.

I do have an AG Parker regulated no4, that rifle seems to shoot 1 5/8 groups at both 100 and 200. Funny thing is it dies it year round with ANY ammo I feed it. Weird but true.

My 3 most accurate "Milsurps" are a Swede m96 Fsr target rifle. About a couple months ago I shot a 1" 5 shot group at 200 yards.

My MkIII Ross can hold it's own against the FSR believe it or not. She's a 1/2 moa gun pretty much any time I pull her out.

Thanks to Buffdog I don't have to choose Swiss or Swede. I eneded up with a K11 Swiss rifle chambered in 6.5x55. Let's just say that testing is preliminary but often that rifle puts then into a ragged hole!!

Without rambling on any further most of these old rifles will be competitive against each other. Practice makes perfect is my opinion.

At 74 I'd sure hate to be on the firing line against Buffdog, the guy can shoot!!

 

[larrysmith]

K31 every time.

 

[Ganderite]

I own a full length Swede M96 (29.1" barrel) and M96 sporter at 26". I also own a K31. I was all gung ho about these these with issued sights until I tried my handloads in my 1945 Ishapore SMLE...I never loaded for 303 before but had the dies and 1x fired brass plus 174gr 3.105 Hornady HPBT, using 42gr of Hybrid 100v powder....to great effect 2 weeks ago at Silverdale. So I am not surprised by beahunter's experience with the old war horses and handloads. Ganderite, it you have a place to shoot, I'd love to bring up my milsurps for you to shoot with handloads!

cheers, Marc

We have a great place to shoot - the DND range in Grimsby - Winona Range. I don't want to shoot your rifles. I have a number of milsurps of my own I have yet to test. I have scout scopes to instal on a M44 and a K31.

If you PM me your name and email address, i will add you to the mailing list and invite you to the next shoot.

 

[bearhunter]

I would have bet $100 these rifles would have placed last.

I enjoy developing loads for these old rifles and shooting them. The Vintage course of fire is perfect to see how a rifle performs. My old eyes don't work well with open sights, but I should at least try my Swede. I got a Scout scope for the K31 so I can do it justice.

I would have agreed with you at one time but I have learned the hard way not to overlook the condition of surplus rifles in a shoot.

I have a magnificent Brazilian 1908 that is a real tack driver. It was issued at one time but has clamp marks on the wrist and rack numbers on the butt. It is so good that some individuals whine and whimper when they sign up for a shoot and I enter with this rifle. One of the matches I really like to take it into is the standing, offhand shoot at the 12in diameter steel gong at 300m. The rifle is sighted in for point of impact at that range from the factory.

Just to clear things up, I have stayed out of matches and loaned the 1908 to other shooters, describing to them the POI setting and where to hold the front sight at 100/200/300. If they know how to shoot, they usually do quite well and if I know they can shoot well I will place a few side bets, if I can find someone to bet.

This isn't an easy shoot. At least not for me. It is open to any rifle any sight/scope. Most shooters are eliminated on the first round because they miss the gong completely. They are allowed three shots to hit it and remain in the shoot. I just love the side bets on this event.

Anyway, if the shooters are familiar with their rifles, if the rifles are in comparable condition and being shot with ammo they like, the only tie breaker will be that abilities of the shooter and how he/she holds their mouth that particular day.

I was really hoping the next shoot we set up can be done with carbine length milsurp bolt rifles. I have a 1904 Erfurt Gew98, a No5 Lee Enfield, a 6.5 type 44 Arisaka, a type 38 Mosin Nagant, a Peruvian 1891 Mauser in 7.65 and a Spanish M93 in 7x57. There are a couple of others that would fit in nicely, like a Turkish Forestry Carbine, but there is only so much time and loads need to be developed for all of them. Not only that, it's just to darn hot these days.

 

[bearhunter]

You mentioned your old eyes don't work well with open milsurp sights. That's why I really like the long barrel beauties. The 29 in barreled Mausers of all makes and models are just my cup of tea. I can actually focus on the front sight and target at the same time.

The carbine shoot I am contemplating may not be in the cards for me to participate in because of my aging eyes and near sightedness. I may just end up being a score keeper.

All of the carbines have matching numbers and are in excellent condition. The only hang up will be the 1904 ERFURT 98. It has a .318 bore and I will have to look hard in my storage area for some fmj of that diameter.

 

[buckbrush]

The French and Italian rifles won because they were new, unfired and dropped once! The K31's and Swede's are great target rifles, totally untested in battle. At least the Italians and French picked a side to fight on, the French picked both sides.

 

[Andurp]

The French and Italian rifles won because they were new, unfired and dropped once! The K31's and Swede's are great target rifles, totally untested in battle. At least the Italians and French picked a side to fight on, the French picked both sides.

The Finnish were 'gifted' a reportedly rather large lot of m/1896 Mausers by the Swedes, and they used them in the winter war against the Soviets. The Finns, being a nation of riflemen, liked them quite a bit from what I've heard. Most were returned to Sweden at the end of the conflict, but some weren't, and SA marked Swede Mausers are around, albeit not super common. As for the French and Italian comments, well, I hope they're a joke.