Is bolt-action accuracy unbeatable?

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I heard someone at the range last week commenting on another shooter's free-floated AR. He said that even though that AR was closer to free-floated then those with the conventional hand guards it still wasn't truly free-floated because of the gas-operation system. He then went on to say that the gas operated system also created another variance in the flow of gases behind the bullet as it travelled down the barrel, which was just one more reason that an AR can never be as accurate as a bolt action when the shooter isn't taken into consideration.

I'd like to pose a question to AR, Sig and all other semi-auto precision rifle owners. Can a free-floated semi-auto rifle be as accurate as a free floated bolt-action rifle if build quality, ammunition, user, ect. weren't factored into the equation?

Thanks for your opinions guys!
 
Build quality has to be factored into the equation as does ammo. Given similar build quality and tailored ammo I think the bolt would still beat the semi, but I have no first-hand empirical evidence, other than the fact that I've never heard of a semi auto bench gun.
 
Build quality is everything so I'm not sure how in can be a non-entity. Having said that, Bolt guns are inherently more accurate given their tighter tolerances, rigidity and non-moving design... Bolt guns are built and tweaked to keep things from moving, whereas it is the nature of the beast to recover energy, gases or inertia and have the firearm cycle with all its opposing forces.

You can get some excellent results though... AR's with a good barrel and match-tuned components and even the M14's can be made to be very accurate with the right components.

Look no further than the sniper weapons systems in law enforcement and the military; they are almost all bolt gun platforms. If there are any agencies out there that had a vested interest in keeping their systems universal, it would be them.
 
I supposed I should have said "if build quality was equivalent" rather then trying not taking it into consideration. The best way I could think of testing this would be to take a free-floated AR and pit it against another AR of the same make and model. The second AR would lack the gas block and would never have been drilled for it, meaning of course that the user would cycle it manually. If only I had the money for such things I'd be out there doing it rather then theorizing haha.
 
There is nothing close to the accuracy of a Centerfire Benchrest Bolt Action Rifle... it dominates all Benchrest competitions throughout the world...
 
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Single shot maybe? My dad has a Ruger #1V in .22-250, holy crap is that an accurate rifle. We went out with a few of the Local PD TAC team guys a few years ago. We had 2 Department issue rifles, both Wolverine M2000 .308's. had 1 Chandler Supergrade .308, my PGW custom 700 .308 and a Sako TRG .308. Although all of the above rifles were out of this world, none could hold the groups out to 300 yards that the 1V was shooting. Keep in mind that was factory ammo in all the guns and every one having a turn at the trigger on each of the guns shot the best with the 1V. I prefer bolts myself, but if I had some extra $$$ to build a nice toy, I would have one of our super Canadia rifle builders, ie. Sorenson, V-Bull or ATR build me a really nice single shot just for fun.
 
There have been a very few exceedinly accurate semi autos produced, the
1s that come to mind that came closest to matching a bolt guns capabilities was the Walther WA2000, the Colt Monitor and the Solothurn 20mm semiauto antitank rifle but they were short lived and extremely expensive for the time rifles made in very limited numbers.
I have a Bushmaster M4 that is for a semi extremely accurate, as in about 3/8 moa at 100 yards, but my 223 bolt gun will do better.
The advantage any action with very few parts has is that the tolerances can be held to much tighter variance. When you add that to not having many parts moving during the time the bullet tales to travel the length of the barrel, you have less chance of disturbing its flight. With the bolt starting to move within an instant of primer ignition, you disrurpt some of the rifles harmonics, couple that with a trigger that is designed to prevent follow fire on recoil , compared to the likes of a Jewel or the like trigger, that is normally present in most serious precision bolt guns and this also add to the repeatability that bolt guns are known for.
The single shots can be extremely precise, the Hall, Martini etc are well proven, but more expensive to build now, hence the bolt guns dominance in the precision field.
 
AR's are now routinely shooting in the 1/4 to 1/3 min range at 100yds. For a battle rifle, that is amazing accuracy. For a BR competitive rifle, stay home.

The LE and military needs are easily met with an MOA platform so these new gassers are a dream come true. I suspect you will see a large swing to AR based sniper rigs for LE and DMR applications in the coming years.

There is no sub for a very fast follow up shot in these application. however, the realm of the LR sniper will still be dominated by bolt rifles for a long time to come. Let's see what the new Barretts bring to the table.

Remember that many working bolt rifles don't shoot much better then these tuned AR's. Alot shoot 1/2 min or larger so there is little lost in going with a semi.

We have to separate the needs of a competition and a working rig. If we built working rifles to the same zero tolerances of a bench rifle, it would lock up solid the first time the shooter took a dive into the dirt. Sames goes for chamber and ammo specs.

For a working precision rig, it has to work first and foremost. No bad guy is likely to complain if the bullet missed the mark by a 1/4".

In a competitive shooting, that might just move you out of the podium.

Jerry
 
The LE and military needs are easily met with an MOA platform so these new gassers are a dream come true. I suspect you will see a large swing to AR based sniper rigs for LE and DMR applications in the coming years.
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military already uses m14s for sniper rigs, of course they have the m24 as well
 
The M14's I have seen reviewed even from top name US companies are running in the 2 to 3MOA range. Far from a precision rifle but very effective at directed cover fire and the shorter distance DMR role.

These rifles were taken out of mothballs because of a need that no other rifle in the present arsenal could provide. 223's and brick walls don't really work well.

Bolt action, 5 rds blind mag rifles don't do so good in firefights either. A DMR rifle has to be capable of holding high cap det mags and be a semi with auto fire capabilities.

As I have said several times, the future of accurate support working rifles will fall back to the semi just like the Russians figured out 50 yrs ago.

Jerry
 
cancer said:
I believe (so don't quoute me) the M14 isn't actually used for sniping, but for the Squad Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR). It's gotta be more precise than the regular M16A2s, but it's not exactly a dedicated long range rig.
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you are probably right about that

civilian m14s arent the same as the ones the military get though, just like the m4s we get arent up to the same spec as military ones. different tolerances ect, they get worked over by the army gunsmiths/armorers so i would expect they are more accurate than what we get
 
Actually, civi rifles are WAY more accurate then the milt counterparts. Most of the tech that is being implemented by the US forces started with Civi marksmanship rifles.

Bullets, barrels, tuning were all used in shooting matches long before they became military fare.

Where do you think the 77gr MK came from?

Jerry
 
I think that in the past 60 years or so and into the future the only other gun that might give the Bolt guns a run is the Single shot, and then it would be a rare bird. Some of the Meacham Highwalls and Millers get the same accuracy enhancements as bench bolt guns, and have set records in Cast Benchrest circles, most are Breech seated cast bullets as some believe it's still the most accurate way to shoot. I know alot of bolt action guys are going to argue this but, as I said, it is an exception, and I am talking about Bench guns shooting groups of under .200".
 
Short range Center Fire Benchrest shooting is done at 100, 200 and 300 yards.

No one shoots cast bullets.
Cast bullet competitions are just that... how good you can get with cast bullets...


Usually a 100 yard match consists of shooting 5 different targets at different times with 5 shots each and taking the average. Small groups are regularly shot under .100" and are not close to a record previously set using a bolt action rifle and jacketed bullets...

I am not saying there are not accurate rifles that are not bolt action, but the accuracy potential of a bolt action is not met by anything else.
 
Dennis has spoken the whole truth. While one may continue to talk about the surprisingly accurate M16 based space guns and be impressed by the occasional superb falling block, none of them can match a precision bolt action. I've not heard of any falling block shooting an aggregate under 1/4 moa. I've not seen one used successfully at long range either (successfully means winning).
I fool around with some fairly unconventional rifles from time to time but you won't see me trying with a falling block any time soon.
I recall an article in Rifle magazine back in about 1978 wherein the author attempted to build a competitive BR rifle on a rolling block. He modified the action considerably and did surprisingly well but not as well as he could have easily done with a bolt. Regards, Bill
 
The wole thing with single shots is the lock up system, and as Leeper and Guntech have stated
( both are highly respected in their field) bolt actions rule for that very reason.
A single shot falling block can be extremely accurate , but to get it there takes a lot of work.
I have owned both Browning and ruger SS rifles that are stunningly accurate right out to 1K - 3 shot groups under 6" were not uncommon, and although they are very impressive on with the generel range crowd, they are ho -hum shooters within the REAL accuracy world of BR shooting.

Bolt actions rule inthe Benchrest World, and that is all there is to it.

It has to do with the way the falling block has to engage the breach, and the fact that the stock is two piece as well.

DTODD6BRrs.jpg

264WSM.jpg

Both of these rifles were built by top shelf accuracy gunsmiths, and both are super accurate within there class ( long range hunting and Fclass) but neither would hold up to the accuracy of a true short range BR rifle.
Cat
 
I guess build quality is the final word in this situation. It's too bad that that precise fit is purposely avoided in all the AR's on the market. I was hoping to build an semi AR-based rifle that could compete with bolt's by removing the gas operation system.
 
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