Is our game too realistic?

[Jarlath]

Just a question to the (x)DPA crowd.
I have never attended any international (read nada outside of SW Ontario) matches, but I was wondering about if you guys present the game scenario/background as enhancements to the match or if you shy away from it. (aka scenario is a mission in Afganhistan, prevention of violent crime, vigilante justice, home defense, etc...)
I asked since I was asked about it by a friend who wondered what the purpose of the (x)DPA was. Was it a game or not? If a game why use a scenario (storyline)?
I was, unforetunately, caught completely unaware and hesitated before I replied that it is indeed a game, and scenarios make the game that much more intense (I hate to use the words more realistic) as it sets out objectives and potential hazzards not immediately visible.

Anyone else? Comments? Advice?

 

[Skip]

Essentially its a shooting competition based on adult self-defence fantasy gaming that tests you on handling skills, and the ability to follow simple instructions. Nothing in it is truly real life, although there may be lifelike components depending on the skill and imagination of the organizers. Wannabe Jack Bauer in 3D...

 

[redleg]

Well I guess it depends on the detail of the scenario. In general terms the scenario drives what you are supposed to do in a stage. For example you are to move back from the targets (you are retreating because...).
The discipline is based on defensive handgun use, so they scenarios tend to reflect that.

 

[Dave L.]

Is it realistic?

In IDPA, you are shooting for points. In a real life gunfight, you are shooting for your life.

In IDPA, you are running to get a better score. In real life you'd be more concerned about running for cover to save your life.

In IDPA you are starting behind props and seeking a window of opportunity. In real life concealment does not necessarily mean cover.

Would I call IDPA realistic? Having never played it I am not one to form judgement. However I have noted pistol sports do not necessarily teach you about the dangers of ricochets, the possibility of hitting bystanders, guessing your attacker's movements, evading an enemy's aim, and most importantly, rigorous discipline to keep yourself calm and in control in the face of imminent death.

To the informed and knowledgeable, yes, IDPA is not too realistic. Even the greatest efforts to make scenarios seem 'realistic' depend on the player's ability to suspend their disbelief in the manner they would while reading a novel. However, to the average uninformed toronto joe or soccer mom mary, with guys with guns running around and shooting through stage props, it would appear as 'training for the next columbine.'

- Dave.

 

[mebiuspower]

It's a game because the targets don't shoot back.


Obvious?

 

[acrashb]

Was it a game or not? If a game why use a scenario (storyline)?

Yes, it's a game. Some parts of it have applicability to "real life", just like some parts of hand-to-hand martial arts have some applicability to street fighting. Just not much, and don't count on it. For example, real doors are generally not cover, just concealment.

The scenarios have two purposes - to stimulate creative ideas in COF design and to create greater immersion for the shooters who are there for an adult cops-and-robbers game. In other words, it makes the COF less sterile and therefore more entertaining. That's all.

For example, some elements of the multi-gun storyline you shot last weekend were based on potentially real happenings. The largest fantasy element? Surviving any of it. Another sample fantasy element: doing static gate duty with a shotgun... not bloody likely, but we needed a stage to shoot slugs from, and that was the best one.

It's fun, and it's better than nothing for learning how to use service arms, but realistic training it isn't. if someone wants that, there are plenty of schools in the US that purport to teach various skill sets, from defence to offense.

 

[Colin]

Would you do better in a real life situation before or after the IDPA stuff. I am almost certain that you would. Is it the end all of combat training, no it's not. But it does lay the groundwork for further skills. Consider that a experianced IDPA memeber has more training than many police forces around the world.

 

[acrashb]

Consider that a experianced IDPA memeber has more training than many police forces around the world.

WRT gun handling, I agree. But WRT force escalation, threat assesment and so on, I'm quite sure the cops learn more. Did you ever see an IDPA stage where verbal commands and/or brandishing resolved the "situation"? Ever use a baton on a carboard target? Ever choke-out a no-shoot by mistake while three of your buddies sit on the target stand to hold it down? Hmmm... now I'm thinking about the next match...

 

[Jarlath]

WRT gun handling, I agree. But WRT force escalation, threat assesment and so on, I'm quite sure the cops learn more. Did you ever see an IDPA stage where verbal commands and/or brandishing resolved the "situation"? Ever use a baton on a carboard target? Ever choke-out a no-shoot by mistake while three of your buddies sit on the target stand to hold it down? Hmmm... now I'm thinking about the next match...

That is just what I am getting at. Don't get me wrong, I love shooting a defensive pistol sport. To me IDPA, IPSC, ODPL, Whatever your flavour of the decade is, are games; otherwise why would we bother scoring. I just brought it up because I had shown our next ODPL match flyer (http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=162915) and the question was raised about the scenario lead in being "not a game-like concept" and if we are trying to teach real life skills.

I agree 100% with Acrashb, as a competing individual, most regular (x)DPA participants probably have superior handling abilities and far better accuracy than most LEO's. BUT! We play a regimented game with set rules and procedures for fair play. Real life follows no rules and I was wondering if anyone else had to answer such questions. (Not like using simunitions with two opposing teams to sort out how much you need to know in real life.)

(BTW Acrashb, You better be coming out to our Match on the 7th.)

 

[Canuck44]

It is a game. The scario descriptions are just that and nothing more nor are they meant to be more.

Now it may just be a generational thing but when I was a youngster we fought off on any given afternoon the Germans and Japanese armies and airforces, (If you were landing at the Edmotnon Industrial Airport back in the early 50's you can be sure you were shot down by our Ack Ack!). Now if that wasn't on we rode with Gen Autry, Wild Bill Hickock and tamed the pesky Indians quite regualrily. Out of that crowd came one Canadian Army General, several NCO's, a couple dozen school teachers, and a whole bunch of pretty normal folks, none of whom to my knowledge got into trouble with the law. IDPA allows us to play a essentially the same way only with real guns and the bad guys (target) don't shoot back.

Sorry it is a game utilizing firearms that you would carry concealed if you could in Canada. It's fun, we keep score and there are rules we play by. It just isn't any more complicated than that.

Take Care

Bob

 

[maxpig]

It's a game because the targets don't shoot back.


Obvious?

hey on that I was thinking of starting an Extreme XDPA league... where there are paintball guns set up in the stage to fire at random... u get hit ur dead and can't continue....

 

[Colin]

WRT gun handling, I agree. But WRT force escalation, threat assesment and so on, I'm quite sure the cops learn more. Did you ever see an IDPA stage where verbal commands and/or brandishing resolved the "situation"? Ever use a baton on a carboard target? Ever choke-out a no-shoot by mistake while three of your buddies sit on the target stand to hold it down? Hmmm... now I'm thinking about the next match...

Actually outside of Western countries and some rich Asian ones, most cops don't get any of that sort of training. Malaysian Cops get a .38special with one reload!!!

(their opponents use Glocks mostly)

 

[4string]

Airsoft for adults.

Seriously though, it allows us to be confident in our shooting abilities. If that involves shooting paper and steel for points or for those who go in harms way to increase thier chance of survival, then these games serve thier purpose.

 

[viper7]

I don't shoot IDPA but when I shoot IPSC I give almost no thought to the scenario. If I start standing behind the open door of a police car with one hand on the wheel and one hand on the door it is just a start position in my mind.

I don't see it as training for how I would handle a real shooting scenario, I think only about how I can get from here to there and start engaging targets as quickly and efficiently as I can.

Both IDPA and IPSC are good training for people who use a firearm professionally the same way doing aerobatics is good training for pilots. A 757 pilot will not be doing many loops and rolls, but doing them in training helps him learn to better manipulate a flying machine, how to stay within the operating cpabilities of his machine and makes him a better operator as a result.

Playing these games ultimately helps puts more of the operation of the firearm into your subconscious so that you can focus your conscious mind on staying alive.

...and that is a good thing.

 

[omen]

WRT gun handling, I agree. But WRT force escalation, threat assesment and so on, I'm quite sure the cops learn more.

Well, this isn't what the question was about, so it's a borderline thread hijack on my part, but you have to distinguish between tactical cops and everyone else. tactical cops are very well trained; the beat cops (looking at Toronto police, in particular) have ridicously low gun qualification standards, and they dread and fear even those.

So, most ipsc shooters are much better at handing and shooting guns than most cops, but that's largely meaningless. That's like saying that most car race drivers are better drivers than most cops - so what?

 

[Maple Leaf Pilgrim]

In regards to looking at IDPA/IPSC as "training". They are not training, but a place wherein you can practice the skills you have learned/developed (good or bad). As for "realistic" scenarios, very seldom will a pack of thugs hang around long enough to see you have produced a firearm/shot one of thier buddies. Also, I feel that you fight how you train. If you look at any shooting game, it is kind of like an "FTX" in my mind. You take the skills you learn on the course and you apply them in the CDPA/IDPA/ISPC, which, in my humble opinion (which doesn't count for much considering how I scored in my first match today ) is a heck of a lot more than your average villain does.

 

[Dave L.]

Airsoft for adults.

Dude I am so making a demotivational poster for that!

- Dave.

 

[Jarlath]

In regards to looking at IDPA/IPSC as "training". They are not training, but a place wherein you can practice the skills you have learned/developed (good or bad). As for "realistic" scenarios, very seldom will a pack of thugs hang around long enough to see you have produced a firearm/shot one of thier buddies. Also, I feel that you fight how you train. If you look at any shooting game, it is kind of like an "FTX" in my mind. You take the skills you learn on the course and you apply them in the CDPA/IDPA/ISPC, which, in my humble opinion (which doesn't count for much considering how I scored in my first match today ) is a heck of a lot more than your average villain does.

True so true. I can only hope as I continue to participate in these action shooting games that I get the following:

1. Better skills at gun manipulation (Control & presentation & speed)
2. Better awareness of my environment (Faster and more encompassing)
3. More accurate (duh... That's a given)
4. Less overweight

I started this thread with the purpose of finding out how to effectively argue the merits of our game. I have them. Thanks for all the input.

 

[Dansy]

Extremely good and fast gun handling.....for me personally zero tactical consideration! just how fast can I screw this up

I have and never had any desires to become a Cop.....or tactical member...just a very good sport (IPSC)

 

[iouri]

I don't shoot IDPA but when I shoot IPSC I give almost no thought to the scenario.

In IPSC there are no scenario for a stage. At least not where I shoot. Goal is to score most points in shortest time.

In IDPA, on the other hand, as I remember form reading IDPA rule book, guideline for scenario is to make it realistic. I think in general IDPA is supposed to be more "real-life", and IPSC is more "sport-like".