ITAR and ammo from the US?

I

ilikeoldguns

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I recently had a rather frightening experience at the border.

Heading down the US the other day for the long weekend, I planned to buy some ammo; so naturally, I looked up the regulations on the Canadian Border Services website. 2+ days? 5000 rounds or less? no problem.

When I come back the guy on our side of the border tells me that if the Americans had checked my car I'd be in jail right now on felony charges until my trial, because they have a "new thing". The guy seemed weird though, like he had a thing against guns; he couldn't seem to understand that I shot at paper for fun.

So when I get home, I check online and find a lot of stuff that contradicts what he said. What i found;

http://www.borderview.com/services/for-individuals/100-export-exemption-details/

in particular says ammo isn't covered, but it's two years old. I did find some stuff on Obummer trying to keep people from talking about guns and other weapons online related to ITAR, but the rest was gobbledygook to me.

What's the truth here? Is the Walmart run across the border for cheap bullets now a thing of the past?

thanks for your time.
 
IMPORT is far different from EXPORT.
Canada has the 5000 round import limit you noted.
The USA has hardcore rules about individuals doing their own export.
You are lucky you didnt get picked up on the other side...
 
If you went crossborder shopping, and brought ammunition out of the US, you violated US Federal law.

You were lucky that you were not apprehended on the US side of the line.
 
It's been this way for years now. Many people do it without declaring but it's a felony in the US if you're caught. If you're caught and you're very lucky, the government official on the US side may tell you to go back into the US and get rid of the ammo. You may get a lifetime ban on ever entering the US again. Or, if you're unlucky you're going to make new "friends" in a US federal prison.

Many people only check Canadian import regulations without any thought of US export regulations and are quite confused when they find out. If you're crossing a border, there are two countries laws that come into play as you are travelling between two countries.

ITAR covers the export of many other things as well:
-all products from certain manufacturers (like Magpul)
-bullets (projectiles), brass, powder, primers, etc.
-automated reloading equipment (but not manually operated equipment)
-all night vision products
-picatinny railed handguards for various rifles
-and many more

For ITAR controlled goods you need an export permit and, usually, an import permit or end user certificate into Canada. When I ordered a Timney trigger from Brownells they had to send me an end user agreement that said I wasn't allowed to ship the trigger outside of Canada without prior approval from the US State Deparment. Things like ammo require permits that can take weeks or months to get approval for and cost hundreds or thousands of dollars per order.
 
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tiriaq said:
If you went crossborder shopping, and brought ammunition out of the US, you violated US Federal law.

You were lucky that you were not apprehended on the US side of the line.
Click to expand...

Also, beware that US border patrol sometimes sets up before you hit the Canadian border and will ask/check about firearms etc. be careful, odds are it won't happen, but if it does, it's very bad news for you.
 
Chas59 said:
Also, beware that US border patrol sometimes sets up before you hit the Canadian border and will ask/check about firearms etc. be careful, odds are it won't happen, but if it does, it's very bad news for you.
Click to expand...
I've heard various stories about people going to big gun shows in the US just to look, not buy a thing, and are stopped short of the Canadian border by police/border security/ATF/etc. and asked if they bought anything at the show. I guess they log license plates or something? Or maybe just out-of-state (or country) license plates?
 
I live on a border city and wish it were legal to bring ammo home because if it were I be able to take over all ammo sales in canada. The prices in Michigan for ammo are unbelievable, I always feel bad when I buy ammo here in Canada because I know I can save 35-40% just by driving 25 minutes but as mentioned above you get caught and those jails on the US side are a little "different" from ours. Lots of bad things could happen, cease your vehicle,never aloud back in the US, huge fines and possible jail time and who knows what our legal system would do to you.

Don't do it pal! Buy it there shoot it there. You rolled the dice and won that time.
 
LUTNIT said:
I've heard various stories about people going to big gun shows in the US just to look, not buy a thing, and are stopped short of the Canadian border by police/border security/ATF/etc. and asked if they bought anything at the show. I guess they log license plates or something? Or maybe just out-of-state (or country) license plates?
Click to expand...

Those Places are monitored by homeland security and border security heavily on border towns, they see out of state or country plates and immediately flag you so your pulled in for a searching just because you when the to have a look.

I have first hand experience with this Gibraltar trade center fills that huge space full of guns and ammo twice a month so naturally I go and check it out and get pulled in every time,finally after about the 3rd or 4th time I ask the guy why I'm getting pulled in all the time and he told me they watch those heavily because of people who "don't know the laws"
 
A Canadian citizens cannot under any circumstances take possession of ammo or firearms on the U.S side.
When I did some Buffalo gun Center imports to Ontario, you have to follow the owner of the store to the border and only then take possession.
This is what I was told:
If you want to have permission to buy ammo and drive it back, got to the http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=huntlicense.prices website and get a Nonresident Annual Hunting – Small Game only hunting permit license for $20 USD. I believe its valid anywhere in the States. Then cross and buy your ammo. But check small game and calibers allowed. Pretty sure .223 is ok.
The 5000 rouds rule applies.
 
If a Canadian has brought firearms legally into the US for hunting, target shooting, etc. he can buy ammunition to use there. It cannot be exported from the US when the hunting/target shooting is over.
 
LUTNIT said:
I've heard various stories about people going to big gun shows in the US just to look, not buy a thing, and are stopped short of the Canadian border by police/border security/ATF/etc. and asked if they bought anything at the show. I guess they log license plates or something? Or maybe just out-of-state (or country) license plates?
Click to expand...

They are not just stories. Last time coming into AB from northern Montana, we were stopped about 1km from the border on US side. Asked if I had any guns/ammo/parts/weapons in the car.

Me - "No sir"
BP - "Did you go to the big gun show in Kalispell this weekend?"
Me - "No sir - actually I didn't know there WAS one, or I WOULD have gone" (truth - so they didn't get my license plate there)
BP - "Well, you probably wouldn't have been able to buy much legally anway!"

They opened the back door and saw three kids in carseats. "Have a nice day". I was wearing a multicam hat at the time.


So yeah - they CAN and DO check vehicles leaving the US to look for regulated items.
 
katazone said:
A Canadian citizens cannot under any circumstances take possession of ammo or firearms on the U.S side.
When I did some Buffalo gun Center imports to Ontario, you have to follow the owner of the store to the border and only then take possession.
This is what I was told:
If you want to have permission to buy ammo and drive it back, got to the http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=huntlicense.prices website and get a Nonresident Annual Hunting – Small Game only hunting permit license for $20 USD. I believe its valid anywhere in the States. Then cross and buy your ammo. But check small game and calibers allowed. Pretty sure .223 is ok.
The 5000 rouds rule applies.
Click to expand...

Close - a couple clarifications:

The intent is that firearms and ammo cannot be exported from the US without proper export permits, ITAR documentation, etc (in other words, forget it).

As Katazone hinted, you can obtain a "Form 6 NIA" from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (search for "6NIA" here on CGN). This is NOT an export form. This form tells the US what firearms and ammo will be coming into the country with you (and when you present yourself at the border, they'll check). Form 6 NIA is for hunters and competition shooters to come into the US (primarily). It used to be that you would also have had to have an invitation from the match you were attending, or a hunting license. The paperwork never said WHICH state's hunting license, so people would buy the cheapest (Alaska, when I used to do it).

So, say you have a hunting license, and a Form 6 NIA, which lists the ammo and firearms you'll be bringing in. Let's say "Ruger 9mm, and 1000 rounds of Winchester 124gr 9mm". They'll check that on your way in. You shoot 300 rounds at the match. If you purchased 300 rounds of 124gr Winchester 9mm, and got stopped on the way to the border, with the same firearms, and same quantity and type of ammo, you'd probably* be just fine. However, if in the above example, you purchased a box of .22LR, then you are illegally exporting the ammo, and you're off to jail.

So the 6NIA is not a license to export ammo from the US, be careful. It is a permit to bring in a list of firearms and their ammo, and leave the country with the same firearms, and "whatever ammo you have left"... which if you're careful, you can match and they may* let you through. I personally wouldn't try "topping up" any used ammo, let alone attempt to bring any back. One trick shooters and hunters use, is to bring the firearms and a quantity of ammo, yes, but then purchase and use US ammo while stateside (a match can be hundreds of rounds, and it's so much cheaper down there, unless you roll your own). Give away or sell the excess, then return across the border with the same ammo you arrived with.

* Above should not be construed as legal advice, or a get out of jail free card.

Fun Fact: Even us put-upon Canadians are permitted firearms that US citizens cannot import - Norincos, for example, are not permitted on the Form 6NIA. Likewise, ARs with short barrels, or certain other features, I've heard are no-nos, where we just consider them "restricted".
 
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Well, I'm glad I didn't rely on that advice!!! Lol


sulisa said:
Close - a couple clarifications:

The intent is that firearms and ammo cannot be exported from the US without proper export permits, ITAR documentation, etc (in other words, forget it).

As Katazone hinted, you can obtain a "Form 6 NIA" from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (search for "6NIA" here on CGN). This is NOT an export form. This form tells the US what firearms and ammo will be coming into the country with you (and when you present yourself at the border, they'll check). Form 6 NIA is for hunters and competition shooters to come into the US (primarily). It used to be that you would also have had to have an invitation from the match you were attending, or a hunting license. The paperwork never said WHICH state's hunting license, so people would buy the cheapest (Alaska, when I used to do it).

So, say you have a hunting license, and a Form 6 NIA, which lists the ammo and firearms you'll be bringing in. Let's say "Ruger 9mm, and 1000 rounds of Winchester 124gr 9mm". They'll check that on your way in. You shoot 300 rounds at the match. If you purchased 300 rounds of 124gr Winchester 9mm, and got stopped on the way to the border, with the same firearms, and same quantity and type of ammo, you'd probably* be just fine. However, if in the above example, you purchased a box of .22LR, then you are illegally exporting the ammo, and you're off to jail.

So the 6NIA is not a license to export ammo from the US, be careful. It is a permit to bring in a list of firearms and their ammo, and leave the country with the same firearms, and "whatever ammo you have left"... which if you're careful, you can match and they may* let you through. I personally wouldn't try "topping up" any used ammo, let alone attempt to bring any back. One trick shooters and hunters use, is to bring the firearms and a quantity of ammo, yes, but then purchase and use US ammo while stateside (a match can be hundreds of rounds, and it's so much cheaper down there, unless you roll your own). Give away or sell the excess, then return across the border with the same ammo you arrived with.

* Above should not be construed as legal advice, or a get out of jail free card.

Fun Fact: Even us put-upon Canadians are permitted firearms that US citizens cannot import - Norincos, for example, are not permitted on the Form 6NIA. Likewise, ARs with short barrels, or certain other features, I've heard are no-nos, where we just consider them "restricted".
Click to expand...
 
So this link; http://www.borderview.com/services/for-individuals/100-export-exemption-details/

Is BS then, or out of date, or both?

And also; the Border Guard said "anything used on a gun, any part or anything which comes in contact with ammunition"

He mentioned particularly reloading trays. (WTF?!)

But I'm more concerned with Bayonets; I collect them and like everything else it seems, you can get better deals and get some stuff down the US you can't get anywhere else.

And parts, previously I understood that I could buy parts and legal magazines so long as it was not a "pressure bearing part" like a barrel, gas system or receiver. So i could buy an M14 rear sight for a '305, but not a flash suppressor. but this would obviate all that.
 
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In NY state you have to worry about state and local cops as well. Since ammo may only be purchased with a NY liscense permit. So even before the boarder you can run into trouble. I live 20 minutes from the U.S. Boarder at Niagara Falls. Was headed over to do some birthday shopping. Forgot, I had my range bag in the trunk. Remembered it just as I was on the bridge heading to US customs. Got to the gate, handed the officer my passport and told him I needed to head right back to Canada. When he asked why, I was honest with him. He asked if I had any firearms, which I didn't. I just told him the contents of my range bag. He laughed and said any guy as honest as you is not going to be a problem. He took out his business card and wrote on it that he was aware of my range bag, had authorized my bringing it into the U.S. He gave me the card and told me to enjoy my day and off I went. 3 hours later when I was done I drove home and declared the purchase paid my Canadian tax and headed home. But, is sure don't want to do that again.....
 
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