Ive got some questions about antique pistols!

driller212

driller212

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Hey guys, I have some specific questions that i would like to ask about antique pistols, i would greatly appreciate it if you could help me!

are cartriges such as .32 rimfire and other types of antique ammunition hard to find?

are they legal to carry in the bush for protection?

how should i go about getting into this hobby? what should i start with?

does marstar carry anything that doesnt require a firearms license so i can take it to the farm?

any other random important advice would be greatly appreciated!!! thanks guys!!!
 
driller212 said:
Hey guys, I have some specific questions that i would like to ask about antique pistols, i would greatly appreciate it if you could help me!

are cartriges such as .32 rimfire and other types of antique ammunition hard to find? YES but not impossible. 32rf in good condition ~$75 short/ ~$100 long per 50

are they legal to carry in the bush for protection? You are carrying it for target practice in the bush ;)

how should i go about getting into this hobby? what should i start with? Watch the blackpowder EE. If you have the $$ get a colt saa (~$2500+)

does marstar carry anything that doesnt require a firearms license so i can take it to the farm? No

any other random important advice would be greatly appreciated!!! thanks guys!!!
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Hope this helps
 
Driller

Best advice I can give you, is start reading just about anything you can find on this board regarding antique revolvers. The answers to all your questions are there.

For the most part 32rf revolvers were considered the Saturday night or suicide specials of their day. They were not considered long range shooters, typical combat distances was across from the card table. They certainly were not considered your first option for bush protection unless you were only worried about an angry grouse or rabbit. Nonetheless they are fun guns to shoot on the farm. You can to some complicated degree reload for these guys, the info is in the forum. The ammo is otherwise difficult to obtain and generally expensive hence their relatively cheap upfront price.

Seriously think about a centerfire pistol that has relatively easy components to source, such as a Lebel, Colt, Remington, Webley. Generally speaking the larger the bore, the more expensive the gun and components are going to be.
Seriously reconsider this antique thing if you are not into reloading or have no interest in learning, this deficit will seriously impact your options and enjoyment.
 
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yea im totally into reloading, gunna get some equipment next month!!!! its gunna be awesome!!!

So the blackpowder revolvers such as the .44 that are pre 1898 that marstar has you need a restricted license to purchase? how is this?
 
driller212 said:
So the blackpowder revolvers such as the .44 that are pre 1898 that marstar has you need a restricted license to purchase? how is this?
Click to expand...

The gun itself has to be pre-1898, not just the design, for it to be considered antique. As far as I know the only blackpowder revolvers that Marstar carries are modern reproductions.
 
mlehtovaara said:
You can get an old webley converted to .45 ACP. This is the easiest route, and cheapest for ammo. The gun will cost you though.
Click to expand...

I am not sure why there is this odd popularity/demand for cut Webley cylinders. I would argue that 45 auto in a Webley is any easier or much cheaper than the original 455 chambering. It's generally ill advised to fire factory 45 auto loads out of antique Webleys as they mimic proof loads and you takes your chances. You pretty much need to reload for either caliber, neither is particularly difficult to load. 455 brass is more expensive but not hard to source, bullets are pretty much interchangeable, dies are readily available. Given a choice I would pick an unmolested 455 anyday, but hey that's apparently just me.
 
Dies and brass for 455 webley is pretty common. Put up a wtb ad or just buy new. They aren't that expensive (at least if you aren't buying the A+++ quality stuff or from a guy who's raking you over the coals) and with blackpowder loads you'll likely lose them before they really start to degrade.
 
Excuse me, guys, but the GUN itself has to be made prior to 1898 and it must fire a centrefire cartridge which is NOT commonly commercially available. I have a Remington 1868 cartridge conversion on an 1863-built Model 1858 and the Firearms Office sez that it is a .44-40 and the ammo is available, therefore, my 1863-built gun still is a Restricted Weapon requiring permits up the wazoo every time it goes outta the house. (Fun thing is that I got news for them: the .44-40 didn't come out until 5 years AFTER it was converted and the rounds won't go into the cylinder: too fat. So we are going to have a go-round with them about this. I just hope they don't decide that it's a .454 Casull or something!)

As to ammo, there is the 10.6 Reichsrevolver, .450 Webley, .442 RIC (Royal Irish Constabulary), .476 Enfield that was used in the early Webleys, .455 in the Mark I and, I believe, some of the Mark IIs, there is an Italian 10.35mm for the old Glisentis and a whole bunch of others. You can't buy ammo for any of them, but it IS possible to make up a small batch of some of them.... if you have the gear, the time and the determination.

I would not want to be Mister Bear if someone was going to feed me a bucketful of 10.6 Reichsrevolver ammo, though.
 
smellie said:
Excuse me, guys, but the GUN itself has to be made prior to 1898 and it must fire a centrefire cartridge which is NOT commonly commercially available.
Click to expand...

Shennanigans!

Go read the definition of a Prescribed Antique in the stickies.

Does NOT say anything about "Common" or "Commercially Available" anywhere in there. Those phrases keep getting dragged out, and they are bulls**t!

Read and learn, so you are not feeding bad info to folks.

Handguns, the rules are simple. Has to have been made before the date, and not be one of the calibers listed in the law.

44-40 (aka 44WCF) IS listed and therefore your pistol is not considered a prescribed antique. If you were to have a 44 Special or 44 Russian cylinder made for it, you could have the gun de-registered and lettered as a Prescribed Antique.

Here. To save some time. These are the sum total of what decides if it is "Antique" or not, in the eyes of the law.

"HANDGUNS

6. A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging only rim-fire cartridges, other than 22 Calibre Short, 22 Calibre Long or 22 Calibre Long Rifle cartridges.

7. A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge 32 Short Colt, 32 Long Colt, 32 Smith and Wesson, 32 Smith and Wesson Long, 32-20 Winchester, 38 Smith and Wesson, 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt, 38-40 Winchester, 44-40 Winchester, or 45 Colt cartridges."

From http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/laws/regu/sor-98-464/latest/sor-98-464.html

Cheers
Trev
 
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smellie said:
Excuse me, guys, but the GUN itself has to be made prior to 1898 and it must fire a centrefire cartridge which is NOT commonly commercially available.
Click to expand...


Ya what Trevj said.

I have a colt saa in 44spl. I can go down to my local gunshop and buy ammo for it. As long as the caliber you are converting to isn't on the "no-go" list, you are good to go.
 
smellie said:
Excuse me, guys, but the GUN itself has to be made prior to 1898 and it must fire a centrefire cartridge which is NOT commonly commercially available. I have a Remington 1868 cartridge conversion on an 1863-built Model 1858 and the Firearms Office sez that it is a .44-40 and the ammo is available, therefore, my 1863-built gun still is a Restricted Weapon requiring permits up the wazoo every time it goes outta the house. (Fun thing is that I got news for them: the .44-40 didn't come out until 5 years AFTER it was converted and the rounds won't go into the cylinder: too fat. So we are going to have a go-round with them about this. I just hope they don't decide that it's a .454 Casull or something!)

As to ammo, there is the 10.6 Reichsrevolver, .450 Webley, .442 RIC (Royal Irish Constabulary), .476 Enfield that was used in the early Webleys, .455 in the Mark I and, I believe, some of the Mark IIs, there is an Italian 10.35mm for the old Glisentis and a whole bunch of others. You can't buy ammo for any of them, but it IS possible to make up a small batch of some of them.... if you have the gear, the time and the determination.

I would not want to be Mister Bear if someone was going to feed me a bucketful of 10.6 Reichsrevolver ammo, though.
Click to expand...



That Remy you got is 44 Remington or 44 Colt Cartritdge converted.
Both of thos are not on the NO list.
you can get that gun deregistered.
The antique firearms laws changed about 1996 or so its now works off a caliber list so its has to be made before 1898 and be a caliber not on there cartridge list.
Your remy is a perscribed antique call the tecs at CFC and get it deregistered.
tell them a 44 40 wont chamber all the way in that its 44 Remington or 44 colt.
 
In answer to your questions as this is what I have dug up on antique ownership as I am new to it also.

1. 32 rimfire is very difficult to find and expensive $2 per round, but you can purchase reloadable brass. Look through cgn on this info.

2. To carry in the bush. That appears to be legal as I can not find any info that says you can't. But I can't really find any case law that says you can.
I work closely with law enforcement, and everyone I spoke with would seize the gun (handgun). Police are not knowledgable on antique laws at all, and know nothing about it.

I also spoke with a retiring BC firearms officer, he was aware of antique laws but still said you could not carry it in the bush, but could not give me any legal proof of that, it was just his opinion. (and most likely has to say this)

Make sure you get the RCMP letter for any antique you may buy ( it states in the letter the gun is not considered to be a firearm) . Make sure the gun you purchase can be researched to prove it is pre 1898, if it can't, don't buy it. Also get a copy of the firearms use and transport regulations. It clearly states the use of antiques. And take them with you when you go out with it.

If you do the above and take it in the bush, keep a low profile and don't wave it around. It also can not be concealed, it must be kept in plain view. Otherwise you would be charged with a concealed weapon, does not matter if it is not a firearm under the antique status. It still is a weapon. Also be aware of where you shoot as you could be charged with " dangerous to the public peace"

Also you can not have it with you for protection, it is for target shooting, plinking :)

3. I would buy a S&W 44 russian or a webley 455, you will pay at least close to $2000 but they are solid guns. Make sure the Webley is original and has not had the cylinder shaved to accept 45 acp. As any anitque modified to shoot another round is not legal.

4. Marstar does sell antiques from time to time but I have never seen any antique handguns. If you are looking for a good quality antique contact Dingus on CGN, he is trustworthy.

I hope this helps.


driller212 said:
Hey guys, I have some specific questions that i would like to ask about antique pistols, i would greatly appreciate it if you could help me!

are cartriges such as .32 rimfire and other types of antique ammunition hard to find?

are they legal to carry in the bush for protection?

how should i go about getting into this hobby? what should i start with?

does marstar carry anything that doesnt require a firearms license so i can take it to the farm?

any other random important advice would be greatly appreciated!!! thanks guys!!!
Click to expand...
 
I think you need to deal with the firearm identification technicians over caliber and whether or not it is chambered for a cartridge on the no go list. Take a chamber cast and give them the dimensions to the nearest .001" both diameter and length. Also slug the bore. I think you will find the technicians much more knowlegeable than the firearms officers in the various provincial offices.

cheers mooncoon
 
rboomsma said:
In answer to your questions as this is what I have dug up on antique ownership as I am new to it also.

1. 32 rimfire is very difficult to find and expensive $2 per round, but you can purchase reloadable brass. Look through cgn on this info.

2. To carry in the bush. That appears to be legal as I can not find any info that says you can't. But I can't really find any case law that says you can.
I work closely with law enforcement, and everyone I spoke with would seize the gun (handgun). Police are not knowledgable on antique laws at all, and know nothing about it.

I also spoke with a retiring BC firearms officer, he was aware of antique laws but still said you could not carry it in the bush, but could not give me any legal proof of that, it was just his opinion. (and most likely has to say this)

Make sure you get the RCMP letter for any antique you may buy ( it states in the letter the gun is not considered to be a firearm) . Make sure the gun you purchase can be researched to prove it is pre 1898, if it can't, don't buy it. Also get a copy of the firearms use and transport regulations. It clearly states the use of antiques. And take them with you when you go out with it.

If you do the above and take it in the bush, keep a low profile and don't wave it around. It also can not be concealed, it must be kept in plain view. Otherwise you would be charged with a concealed weapon, does not matter if it is not a firearm under the antique status. It still is a weapon. Also be aware of where you shoot as you could be charged with " dangerous to the public peace"

Also you can not have it with you for protection, it is for target shooting, plinking :)

3. I would buy a S&W 44 russian or a webley 455, you will pay at least close to $2000 but they are solid guns. Make sure the Webley is original and has not had the cylinder shaved to accept 45 acp. As any anitque modified to shoot another round is not legal.

4. Marstar does sell antiques from time to time but I have never seen any antique handguns. If you are looking for a good quality antique contact Dingus on CGN, he is trustworthy.

I hope this helps.
Click to expand...


Good Post :) But you got one thing Wrong...... a Webley modified to shoot 45 ACP is still a perscribed Antique.
As long as its a caliber not on the NO List.

Alot of guys are missing this important fact.
theres lots of Webley MKIs and MKIIs that are RCMP Lettered as Antique that shoot 45 ACP or 45 Auto rim.
Also I spoke to the B.C CFO Office and they told me after a 2 hr meeting of all of them reading the regs they could not tell me that takeing a antique firearm and target shooting with anywhere a non restricted firearm could be discharged was ilegal.
They did tell me to carry a RCMP Letter on the gun and a set of transport and use regs.

hope this helps.
 
Morning Dingus

I prefer to play it safe. Because if a anitque has been modified from its original
production. By machining it to fire a commercial round I would prefer to stay away from it even if the round is not on the list.

Do the RCMP letters actually state it now also shoots 45 acp?




dingus said:
Good Post :) But you got one thing Wrong...... a Webley modified to shoot 45 ACP is still a perscribed Antique.
As long as its a caliber not on the NO List.

Alot of guys are missing this important fact.
theres lots of Webley MKIs and MKIIs that are RCMP Lettered as Antique that shoot 45 ACP or 45 Auto rim.
Also I spoke to the B.C CFO Office and they told me after a 2 hr meeting of all of them reading the regs they could not tell me that takeing a antique firearm and target shooting with anywhere a non restricted firearm could be discharged was ilegal.
They did tell me to carry a RCMP Letter on the gun and a set of transport and use regs.

hope this helps.
Click to expand...
 
you don't need a letter from the RCMP.
as long as it's chambered for a round that isn't on the list that trevj posted.
Wanna play it real safe-head to the air rifle forum ;)
but just in case you wanna temp fate here's the pertinent info regarding antique's:

ANTIQUE VERIFIERS NETWORK


Phone 1-800-731-4000(CFC)
Press 1 for english
press 1 for the extension,

Extension is 1090

All you need is the

make-

model-

serial number-

caliber-


##############################################################################

Regulations Prescribing Antique Firearms

SOR/98-464

CRIMINAL CODE

His Excellency the Governor General in Council, on the recommendation of the Minister of Justice, pursuant to the definitions “prescribed”a and “antique firearm”a in subsection 84(1) and to subsection 117.15(1)a of the Criminal Code, hereby makes the annexed Regulations Prescribing Antique Firearms.

a S.C. 1995, c. 39, s. 139

Registration September 16, 1998

REGULATIONS PRESCRIBING ANTIQUE FIREARMS

PRESCRIPTION

1. The firearms listed in the schedule are antique firearms for the purposes of paragraph (b) of the definition “antique firearm” in subsection 84(1) of the Criminal Code.

COMING INTO FORCE

2. These Regulations come into force on December 1, 1998.

SOR/98-472, s. 3.

SCHEDULE

(Section 1)

BLACK POWDER REPRODUCTIONS

1. A reproduction of a flintlock, wheel-lock or matchlock firearm, other than a handgun, manufactured after 1897.

RIFLES

2. A rifle manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging only rim-fire cartridges, other than 22 Calibre Short, 22 Calibre Long or 22 Calibre Long Rifle cartridges.

3. A rifle manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, whether with a smooth or rifled bore, having a bore diameter of 8.3 mm or greater, measured from land to land in the case of a rifled bore, with the exception of a repeating firearm fed by any type of cartridge magazine.

SHOTGUNS

4. A shotgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging only rim-fire cartridges, other than 22 Calibre Short, 22 Calibre Long or 22 Calibre Long Rifle cartridges.

5. A shotgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, other than 10, 12, 16, 20, 28 or 410 gauge cartridges.

HANDGUNS

6. A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging only rim-fire cartridges, other than 22 Calibre Short, 22 Calibre Long or 22 Calibre Long Rifle cartridges.

7. A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge 32 Short Colt, 32 Long Colt, 32 Smith and Wesson, 32 Smith and Wesson Long, 32-20 Winchester, 38 Smith and Wesson, 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt, 38-40 Winchester, 44-40 Winchester, or 45 Colt cartridges.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Under the current legislation, "any antique firearm" is not a "firearm" for the following purposes:

1. Firearms Act: None of the provisions of the Firearms Act, including those requiring registration, licences, ATTs and/or ATCs, apply to any "antique firearm."

2. CC s. 91 and 92: Possession of any "antique firearm" without a licence or registration certificate is legal.

3. CC s. 93: Possession of any "antique firearm" at any location is legal.


4. CC s. 94: Being in a motor vehicle with any "antique firearm" is legal.


5. CC s. 95: Being in possession of a loaded "antique firearm" (which is also a "restricted firearm" or a "prohibited firearm"), or one with readily accessible ammunition is legal even if the person is not the holder of any licence, registration certificate, ATT, or ATC.

6. CC s. 99: Transferring or offering to transfer any "antique firearm" is legal.

7. CC s. 100: Dealing in any type of any "antique firearm" is legal.

8. CC s. 101: Transferring any "antique firearm" is legal if the transfer apparently violates the Firearms Act.

9. CC s. 103 and 104: Importing or exporting any "antique firearm" is legal.

10. CC s. 105: Not reporting the loss or finding of any "antique firearm" is legal.

11. CC s. 106 and 107: Not reporting the destruction of any "antique firearm" is legal, and knowingly making a false report of that type to a firearms official or the police is legal.

12. CC s. 117.03: A peace officer who finds a person in possession of any "antique firearm" is not authorized to demand that the person present a licence, registration certificate, ATT, and/or ATC.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------



ANTIQUE FIREARMS-storage,transport,display




14. (1) An individual may store, display or transport an antique firearm only if it is unloaded.


(2) An individual may transport an antique firearm in an unattended vehicle only if


(a) when the vehicle is equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the antique firearm is in that trunk or compartment and the trunk or compartment is securely locked; and



(b) when the vehicle is not equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the antique firearm is not visible from outside the vehicle and the vehicle, or the part that contains the antique firearm, is securely locked.



(3) An individual may transport an antique firearm that is a handgun only if it is in a locked container that is made of an opaque material and is of such strength, construction and nature that it cannot readily be broken open or into or accidentally opened during transportation.
 
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