Iver Johnson American Bulldog revolver

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laurencen

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had this some time and over Christmas figured I would find out mor about it, its double action best I can tell bore is .44cal, the only markings are on the top od barrel "AMERICAN BULL DOG" and a serial number under the left grip, there are many examples of this large frame bulldog, how does one determine it is indeed a antique.

thanks for any help I will try to figure how to post a picture
 
All "American Bulldogs" are considered antique. Iver Johnson made several variants of this one and they were all made before 1898. As long as it is not in one of the exempted calibers (.32 or .38 center fire) you are good. The caliber is .44 Webley, Bulldog or even 44 Russian. Iver Johnson's are quite unique in this respect. Some of the variants will take a 44 Russian.
 
thanks for the info, it was assumed it was antique and indeed its 44 Webley, make the brass from 44 brass shortened and thinned rim, the lead is cast from a mold I made on the CNC, light loads all good fun
 
Do not thin a rim yet, they may not need to be.

The 44 Webley is sort of based on the 44 RIC but there were a ton of variations in this case. I have a "British Bulldog", the stamping on the top strap will also specify when it was made, yes, I bought the Iver Johnson book, feel free to PM me and I can take some pictures for you with the details.

My 44 will fit 44 Russian brass in the cylinder but the cylinder is way too short for the 44 Russian COAL, so not 44 Russian. There is also a stop in the cylinder, these are not heeled bullet cartridges like many people would have you believe, but this may be different with your gun. I suspect yours will be the same as mine, a stepped cylinder with a very large throat and and rifling to accept American "44 cal" bullets, 0.430 cast lead.

What I did was trim some 44 Special brass a bit short so that it would fit the cylinder (44 Russian could not be found), then test fit, the gap in mine is such that there is no need to thin the rim, perfect. Then I trimmed the case so that with a bullet seated I am at the crimp groove and the COAL is just shorter than the cylinder length with a 200gr soft lead 0.430 bullet, this is how I determined my cartridge length and case length. Then I loaded true BP in there to have a heavy compressed load and done, goes bang and makes a lot of smoke :)

One not, starline brass has a thinner web, this is good, works better than American 44 special brass. American 44 special brass is just a 44 Mag shortened, the web is so long the bullets actually bulge the case, so after loading and crimping I size the loaded round again with no decapping pin. For a crimp die I use a 7.62x39 sizing die, the decapping pin area I have a threaded bolt as a seating die, this is an RCBS die and works well for this function.

Feel free to PM me if you want any of the notes I have.
 
My Iver Johnson American Bulldog chambers 44 Russian loaded with a 200 grain round flat nose bullet (Lee 429-200-rf) perfectly. A longer round nose bullet will not fit (Lee 429-240-2r).

I load the 200 grain round flat nose over 20 grains of ffg or fffg black powder. Bullet is pan lubed with 50/50 beeswax/olive oil.
 
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Derv said:
My Iver Johnson American Bulldog chambers 44 Russian loaded with a 200 grain round flat nose bullet (Lee 429-200-rf) perfectly. A longer round nose bullet will not fit (Lee 429-240-2r).

I load the 200 grain round flat nose over 20 grains of ffg or fffg black powder. Bullet is pan lubed with 50/50 beeswax/olive oil.
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I cannot physically fit any more than 12gr of black powder in the case, the bullets start to push back out. I am loaded to a COAL of 1.09in, which gets me to the end of the cylinder on this British Bulldog, 44 Russian is 1.43in COAL.

My total cylinder length is 1.285in long though, so maybe I need to find me some 44 Russian brass and try to make a longer cartridge and pack in some more powder.

I was shooting at the standard COAL of the 44 Webley
 
Fox said:
I cannot physically fit any more than 12gr of black powder in the case, the bullets start to push back out. I am loaded to a COAL of 1.09in, which gets me to the end of the cylinder on this British Bulldog, 44 Russian is 1.43in COAL.

My total cylinder length is 1.285in long though, so maybe I need to find me some 44 Russian brass and try to make a longer cartridge and pack in some more powder.

I was shooting at the standard COAL of the 44 Webley
Click to expand...

I just pulled everything out here to have a quick measure. My cylinder is 1.248”. My 200 grain Lee rf bullet over 20 grains (1.3cc Lee dipper) in a Starline 44R case has a COAL of 1.21”. My standard 44R load with the 240 grain longer-nose bullet over 20 grains has a COAL of 1.33”.

I like the 20 grain black powder load because it’s easy to remember for loading 44 Russian and 41 Long Colt the same, ha ha!
 
Derv said:
I just pulled everything out here to have a quick measure. My cylinder is 1.248”. My 200 grain Lee rf bullet over 20 grains (1.3cc Lee dipper) in a Starline 44R case has a COAL of 1.21”. My standard 44R load with the 240 grain longer-nose bullet over 20 grains has a COAL of 1.33”.

I like the 20 grain black powder load because it’s easy to remember for loading 44 Russian and 41 Long Colt the same, ha ha!
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Not too shabby, maybe I need to find more cases to make some longer ones and run a longer 44 Russian style cartridge.

The 200gr lee mold that I have casts to 220gr with soft lead.
 
Fox said:
I cannot physically fit any more than 12gr of black powder in the case, the bullets start to push back out. I am loaded to a COAL of 1.09in, which gets me to the end of the cylinder on this British Bulldog, 44 Russian is 1.43in COAL.

My total cylinder length is 1.285in long though, so maybe I need to find me some 44 Russian brass and try to make a longer cartridge and pack in some more powder.

I was shooting at the standard COAL of the 44 Webley
Click to expand...

The Iver Johnson American Bulldog and British Bulldog are not the same caliber. The British Bulldog is a 44 Webley or 44 Bulldog and will not take a 44 Russian unless it's modified. The Amercan Bulldog will take any of the three - 44 Russian should be a flat nose or wad cutter. Also, black powder is loaded by volume, not weight. If you push it down to a point where the bullet gets pushed back out, you are compressing the powder which is a no-no.
 
Old Guns Canada said:
The Iver Johnson American Bulldog and British Bulldog are not the same caliber. The British Bulldog is a 44 Webley or 44 Bulldog and will not take a 44 Russian unless it's modified. The Amercan Bulldog will take any of the three - 44 Russian should be a flat nose or wad cutter. Also, black powder is loaded by volume, not weight. If you push it down to a point where the bullet gets pushed back out, you are compressing the powder which is a no-no.
Click to expand...

I have never heard that about the 44 American Bulldog, makes sense though, going to see about 44 Russian brass or more 44 Special and do more trimming.

This is a black powder only gun, black powder requires compression, without compression you are creating a bomb, you are thinking about smokeless, compressing smokeless can be done but depends on a lot of factors, BP needs to be compressed.

As for the load, you can weigh black powder, it does not matter how you do it as long as you do not go over what the maximum load is. FFg goex weighs almost the same as the volumetric grains, 10gr of FFg weighs close to 10gr but I do not use a volumetric dipper for cartridge, heck, I do not like to use a volumetric dipper for muzzle loaders. The key is to do a volumetric load of your powder, either BP or substitute (will not use those in antiques personally) and then weigh it. Take note of the weight and weigh your charges, this will be more consistent than using a volumetric scale and still 100% safe.
 
Fox said:
I have never heard that about the 44 American Bulldog, makes sense though, going to see about 44 Russian brass or more 44 Special and do more trimming.

This is a black powder only gun, black powder requires compression, without compression you are creating a bomb, you are thinking about smokeless, compressing smokeless can be done but depends on a lot of factors, BP needs to be compressed.

As for the load, you can weigh black powder, it does not matter how you do it as long as you do not go over what the maximum load is. FFg goex weighs almost the same as the volumetric grains, 10gr of FFg weighs close to 10gr but I do not use a volumetric dipper for cartridge, heck, I do not like to use a volumetric dipper for muzzle loaders. The key is to do a volumetric load of your powder, either BP or substitute (will not use those in antiques personally) and then weigh it. Take note of the weight and weigh your charges, this will be more consistent than using a volumetric scale and still 100% safe.
Click to expand...

I have always loaded PB by volume. Yes, it's a bomb if there is an air space between the powder and bullet, but my info says not to compress the powder. Just fill the space between the base and bottom of the bullet. I make a dipper from a spent cartridge, measuring the depth of the seated bullet and trim the spent cartridge accordingly. No compression. I have taken several vintage blackpowder cartridges apart and the powder was always just snug in the space between the base and bullet. But, each to his own. Can't speak to muzzle loaders as I have not tried it.
 
so looking locally there are 2 powders available, both from Cabela's, Hodgdon pyrodex and triple seven FFFg, Pyrodex has corrosion issues, what are you using for powder? leading to the Triple seven just because its available or is there something else out there I need to keep my eyes open for
 
Old Guns Canada said:
I have always loaded PB by volume. Yes, it's a bomb if there is an air space between the powder and bullet, but my info says not to compress the powder. Just fill the space between the base and bottom of the bullet. I make a dipper from a spent cartridge, measuring the depth of the seated bullet and trim the spent cartridge accordingly. No compression. I have taken several vintage blackpowder cartridges apart and the powder was always just snug in the space between the base and bullet. But, each to his own. Can't speak to muzzle loaders as I have not tried it.
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Look up compression dies or compression plugs, black powder is made to be compressed, sometimes very heavily.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/list/Item.aspx/1222/1
 
laurencen said:
so looking locally there are 2 powders available, both from Cabela's, Hodgdon pyrodex and triple seven FFFg, Pyrodex has corrosion issues, what are you using for powder? leading to the Triple seven just because its available or is there something else out there I need to keep my eyes open for
Click to expand...

I personally will not use 777 in an antique, there are claims that it will be fine but it does burn hotter for the same volume and a quicker pressure spike.

As for Pyrodex, I do not like it, but that would be the way to go before 777 in my opinion.

For the corrosion, you are shooting a black powder gun, it comes with the territory, you have to clean the gun properly with hot soapy water, black powder, pyrodex, 777, no different in that case. For pyrodex it seems to erode faster though. You also need to put your brass in to water to neutralize the corrosion as well, as soon as possible.
 
Good to know. I'll still stay with just a snug fill though. The H&C reloading kits for rim fire cartridges are filled from the back, so no compression is possible. They work very well. Hodgdon also recommends not to compress their Triple - 7 and Pyrodex powders - mind you, they are not real black powders...
Live and learn!

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Fox said:
I personally will not use 777 in an antique, there are claims that it will be fine but it does burn hotter for the same volume and a quicker pressure spike.

As for Pyrodex, I do not like it, but that would be the way to go before 777 in my opinion.

For the corrosion, you are shooting a black powder gun, it comes with the territory, you have to clean the gun properly with hot soapy water, black powder, pyrodex, 777, no different in that case. For pyrodex it seems to erode faster though. You also need to put your brass in to water to neutralize the corrosion as well, as soon as possible.
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I ran out of BP and made the mistake of using Pyrodex.
Don't do that, upon firing my barrel jumped a thread forward on a 1858 Remington 44 C & B.
Very sad.
Substitute is more powerful.
 
tokguy said:
I ran out of BP and made the mistake of using Pyrodex.
Don't do that, upon firing my barrel jumped a thread forward on a 1858 Remington 44 C & B.
Very sad.
Substitute is more powerful.
Click to expand...

Were you weighing charges or going by volume? Pyrodex is not suppose to be as bad but it is a lot lighter. 100gr of FFg Goex weighs about 100gr but 100gr of RS Pyrodex weighs a lot less than 100gr. If you are going by weight and using the same weight then you over charged it, but yes, I agree, substitutes are stronger.
 
Intrepid said:
https://higginsonpowders.com/

https://www.hummason.com/

Both in Ontario, I believe. They may only ship in bulk, as opposed to one or two pounds, but I'm not sure. Best bet is to contact them and ask.
Our club buys powder in bulk from one or the other.
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just got a reply seems Higginson does not carry true black powder and offer Pyrodex or triple 7 substitutes instead, waiting on the reply from hummason
 
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