Just got a Norinco M305 long version

[ginnz]

Hi guys,

I just did a trade on here for my Tact. shotgun, for a Norinco M305, long barrel. The Norinco supposedly had very few rounds through it, and the pics look like it is in excellent condition. I have a couple questions though.

Now, Im not expecting this thing to shoot sub MOA, but, im going to want to use it for coyote hunting, so, Ill be wanting it to be able to put 5 shots into a 4" area at 400 yards. Now, with that in mind, what will I probable need to do to be able to get it to be a reasonably accurate semi-auto? Aare there a few common things that can be looked at/ upgraded that will make it a better shooter? I will be getting the pro-mag M1A low scope mount, and an arch angel M305 stock from Jerry at mystic precision. I will be using my Leatherwood M1000 ART II scope on it. It will be bedded to the stock, and the gas system "tightened" up..... what kind of accuracy can Iexpect after I have done this? At this time, I handload for my Savage Model 12 .308, and Rem 722 AICS .308, Im using Hornady AMAX 168, and 178 gn bullets, with 45 gn Varget, pretty much. How does the M305 handle the 168/178 gn Amax's?

Also, It has the long barrel, how much accuracy would I loose by have it cut down to the short barreled version length, if any? Any suggestions are greatly appreciated!

Ginnz.

 

[Aniest]

Now, Im not expecting this thing to shoot sub MOA, but, im going to want to use it for coyote hunting, so, Ill be wanting it to be able to put 5 shots into a 4" area at 400 yards.

The best I have been able to do with a Norinco is 8 inches at 400 yards off of the bench rest (stable bags, about 50lbs worth, etc.) with a number of improvements and months of reloading to find the sweet load; and that was best group: average was bigger. I could have closed the gas port and turned off the semi: but what would the point be then?

.. what will I probable need to do to be able to get it to be a reasonably accurate semi-auto? Aare there a few common things that can be looked at/ upgraded that will make it a better shooter?

You will need a better op rod spring guide. The one in it is likely a flat bar that lets the main sping "crumple" instead of "collapse uniformly": you want a round style, with (in my opinion) the cruciform type the best (slots hold the grease).

Ensure the bolt locking lugs are contacting the receiver properly: there are stickies and guides for checking all over.

Any "Hungry's Football Game" trigger job or professional job will help.

Make sure the gas locking ring "indexes" to the right location.

Sometimes "utinizing" the gas system helps: it did a lot on the M305 I had. I went from 3" groups at 100 yards to 1" groups with that change alone.

If you can get to one of Hungry's clinics (TacticalTeacher on CGN): do it! You won't regret the knowledge if you have any long term interest in the M305 at all.

How does the M305 handle the 168/178 gn Amax's?

It should love the 168gr bullets (sweet spot seems to be 155-168 range), but I think the 178 is getting too big for the gas system to handle (180+ is known to damage the gas systm that comes from factory: changes can be made, however).

I'm using Hornady AMAX 168, and 178 gn bullets, with 45 gn Varget, pretty much.

I don't know about Varget: someone else would have to chime in. The gas system and the mechanical make-up of the M305/M14 requires a specific burn and pressure curve to operate the best. This was dependant on the powder the military used at the time the M14 was designed: they tuned the system to it, and now with the variety of powders we have, you must load your ammo to this tuning. (AS I was told it)

what kind of accuracy can Iexpect after I have done this?

The M305 is what I lovingly call "the hobby gun" (while AR's are the "Barbie for Gunowners") that will do very well for the price, and even better if you work at it. At some point, if you expect 4" groups at 400 yards consistant, you may have to put a lot of work into it. As I said, I have averaged 9-10" at 400 yards consistant: well enough for deer I have shot in the past with it.

Also, It has the long barrel, how much accuracy would I loose by have it cut down to the short barreled version length, if any?

That I do not know. I have the opinion that the system needs more "tinkering" to work right as a shorty. Why? I personally think that the end few inches of the barrel build pressure into the gas system: when that pressure is gone more modification is needed to make it work as intended. Again, my opinion (I know some will disagree: that's ok), is the system can be made to work as a shorty by simply cutting and re-crowning a barrel... but to make it "sing like it love's it" you must adjust something to compensate.

But then again: never bought or shot a shorty and don't intend to.

 

[BioPace]

will be getting the pro-mag M1A low scope mount, and an arch angel M305 stock from Jerry at mystic precision. I will be using my Leatherwood M1000 ART II scope on it. It will be bedded to the stock, and the gas system "tightened" up..... what kind of accuracy can Iexpect after I have done this?

Accuracy from an M305? It depends how 'lucky' you got with the slave labour shop class who made your rifle. IMO - from reading around here and other places a fair bit - if you do the mods you are talking about and end up with a rifle that shoots 2 MOA (so 8" @ 400yds) then you should be happy.
She's a rifle designed for man size targets.

 

[caramel]

With my bone stock 305, load devellopment made it more accurate, some good day i would keep my shooting @ 2 MOA, using factory ammo it was more a 3.5 to 5 MOA... If you work out a good load, you get 50% improvment and it cost nothing... JP.

 

[LordEvilPepper]

use BLC-2 powder, its burn is ment for .308, and its got lots of horse power. I load shells for M14 platforms and thats what I use. I tried 4895, and vargret and I couldn't get the velocity out of those powders without stepping up the powder charge to near max.
I used 168 burgers H VLD's they shoot well enough, but keep in mind when you get them up to speed they corkscrew in the air untill around 200 yards before settling down, so your 100 yard group is not going to give you a good indication of what your getting at longer ranges for MOA. I almost gave up on them because I couldn't get a 100m grouping under 2.5 inches.... but then i took them to shoot long range and got a 1.5 inch group at 300m ( in a tikka T3 tac not the M14)

The best round I have used so far however is 150 SST's from hornady. I have yet to find a .308 that doesn't like them. they shoot well out of the M14's (and amazing out of the tikka; I could hit golf balls 2 for 3 shots at 300m on a nice calm sunny day) they have much better impact results in the "close range" (50-300) then the bigger bullets from my experience.

 

[sunray]

"...into a 4" area at 400..." That's one MOA. Not a chance without major re-building. The M305 isn't a match grade rifle. The .308 is too much for Wiley too. Unless you don't care about the hides.

 

[drifter dave]

Sounds like you need a bolt action hunting rifle.

 

[Beadwindow]

The best I've been able to get have been a few 4 and 5 inch groups shooting prone with open sights at 200 yards using Norinco ammo. The rifle did this in stock condition, with the NM Op Rod Spring Guide and while wearing both the wooden Norc and Fibreglass USGI stock. Usually after the first group or two a combination of shooter fatigue and perhaps a warm/hot rifle will open that up considerably.

Though I've been personally satisfied with my performance on the rifle in question and don't doubt that it could do better scoped and tweaked, it could very well require much work to get to the level of accuracy that you're looking for. I might suggest trying her out at the intended range to see how it fares as is, and then follow the advice given on above on accurizing the rifle to achieve its peak performance.

 

[ginnz]

Sounds like you need a bolt action hunting rifle.

LOL.... I have a bunch of those. ;-)

Oh, and thanks for all the info guys! I appreciate it. I got the rifle today, and took it to the range, I had a bunch of 168 gn/45 Varget loads made up that I use in my Savage Model 12, and tried them in the '305. All I have are the stock iron's, but I did shoot a nice group at 75y. (1"), so I believe it has potential. I am ordering a ProMag low scope mount, and the ArchAngel M305 stock to start with. I will be reading up on all the stuff I need to know about tuning this thing. Its going to be alot of fun, I know that already! I believe I have a bunch of 155 gn AMAX bullets I will load up for this thing. Next time i'm in the city, or down south, Ill see if I cant find a couple pounds of BLC-2, but i dunno, powder has been rare as hens teeth all summer.... :-(

Thanks again, and let the fun begin! Oh, and about thinking of shortening it? No.... i won't, Its fine just the way it is!

Ginnz!

 

[metalslug]

Make sure the gas locking ring "indexes" to the right location.

Sometimes "utinizing" the gas system helps: it did a lot on the M305 I had. I went from 3" groups at 100 yards to 1" groups with that change alone.

Could you be more specific on these points? Where exactly should the gas locking ring index, and what is "utinizing" the gas system?
Also, who in Canada sells a round style op rod guide?
I was going to post a new topic on this but figured i'd be better off to resurrect the thread.

 

[Pr589]

You want the gas lock to be tight, so it should be finger tight at the 4:30 or 5:00 position (with the gun right side up) and be really tight when tapped into alignment with the gas cylinder.

Unitizing is the process of attaching the front band to the gas cylinder assembly. The purpose is apparently to minimize shifting of parts that apply pressure to the barrel, reducing sources of inconsistency in POI, thus tightening groups.

 

[xcr800]

I didn't have much luck with the pro mag mount(yymv).Didn't fit my rifle without some major mods to the mount and the screw for the stripperclip wedge was tiny and easy to strip.But in saying that other guys on here have had great results with it. I ended up putting the casm mount on instead. Cheekweld is higher but mount is rock solid .

 

[TACTICAL111]

Not being a downer, but if this is for coyotes, it's total overkill.
There won't be much left of the hide or the coyote.

To each his own I suppose.

 

[chadeech]

As a long range hunting ...wrong platform ...get a bolt 223 or 308
safe shooting

 

[SoBored]

I have an M14s and love it. I've even turned in a sub 1 MOA 5 shot group with it @ 100 yards. That being said it is not the ideal platform for coyote @ 400 yards. I'd get a 243 if 400 yard dogs was my goal.

 

[Seafury]

Sounds like you need a bolt action hunting rifle.

Even most bolt action hunting rifles with sporter barrels won't shoot MOA. If they did why would anyone pay for a heavy barrel tactical rifle. Weatherby only guarantees 1.5 " at 100 yds.

There is a tendency in the battle rifles threads for people to exaggerate the capability of not only the Norinco but the Springfield or any other GI spec M14 type rifle. It is particularly painful listening to it from guys with stock Norinco's that have the lowest QC. Why for many years did most of the competitors at Camp Perry have Springfield Armory Super Match M1A rifles or custom built M14's if stock Norinco's were actually capable of 1 MOA? Heck why didn't they use standard M1A's? Because they don't shoot like varmint rifles and if you took the time to understand it the reason that the M14 is rarely seen on the line now despite the fact that the
highest score ever achieved in NM competition was done with an M14 is that they require continual tuning. These rifles are like drag cars that require frequent bedding and attention to perform their best. The NM AR15 is just easier to make accurate. And they hold it longer.

Of all of my rifles, no of all of my firearms there is something about my M1A standard that I just can't get enough of. It is a design that has it's roots before the second big one and still fills a role today. It functions well in dirty conditions and feels like a mans rifle. If it shoots 3 MOA so be it because if you are shooting off a sand bag on the bench you are missing the point. If you want MOA you won't get it for $450. Practice the 4 basic shooting positions with your battle rifle and those skills will work with every gun you own. Its just a whole lot more fun with an M14 than anything else.