Just out of curiosity
- Thread starter Riflechair
- Start date
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
The 308 comes from being popular with us belly gunners!
It is the cartridge that is used more than anmy for TR shooting with a sling and irons, other than that, I dunno , more recoil thatn the 308 with not too much of anything else thrown in?
With the availability of 155 grain bullets that will stay super sonic at 1,000 there is no need for the extra 75-100FPS that the 30'06 delivers to a paper target.
It is the cartridge that is used more than anmy for TR shooting with a sling and irons, other than that, I dunno , more recoil thatn the 308 with not too much of anything else thrown in?
With the availability of 155 grain bullets that will stay super sonic at 1,000 there is no need for the extra 75-100FPS that the 30'06 delivers to a paper target.
moosehunter
Regular
- Location
- Prince George
Nothing wrong with the '06' at all. The biggest reason a .308 is an inherantly accurate cartridge is its on the short action, (stiffer). Build your 06 on a short action and bench it single shot.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Nothing. In fact, 155gr at 3000fps would be quite a nice set up. Recoil is not really an issue due to rifle weight. If you want to shoot heavier bullets, still not big enough case. The WM is about min for 210 and heavier bullets.
But if building a full up BR rifle, there are better cals/cartridges to choose from. Wind is your biggest enemy. Anything that reduces wind drift is a must have.
I doubt you are going to find any heavy barreled factory rifles in an '06.
Jerry
But if building a full up BR rifle, there are better cals/cartridges to choose from. Wind is your biggest enemy. Anything that reduces wind drift is a must have.
I doubt you are going to find any heavy barreled factory rifles in an '06.
Jerry
- Location
- Calgary, AB
Prior to the arrivial of the .308 Win in the early 50's, the .30-06 was the darling round for full bore match rifle shootinng. I have a fine example of one of these rifles; an 1903 Springfield NRA target rifle circa 1917 with a superb target stock and Redfield International Match sights front and rear.
A heavy barrel in .30-06 with some detailed reloading will still post a good showing. If you reload, deburr your flash holes and use match grade primers, and you will be quite pleased with your 06.
A heavy barrel in .30-06 with some detailed reloading will still post a good showing. If you reload, deburr your flash holes and use match grade primers, and you will be quite pleased with your 06.
The 30 cal wildcat
If I were building this and factory ammo was not a concern, I would look seriously at the 284 case necked up. The Chambering is critical, tight neck [ and your most trusted gunsmith] take care Bill.
If I were building this and factory ammo was not a concern, I would look seriously at the 284 case necked up. The Chambering is critical, tight neck [ and your most trusted gunsmith] take care Bill.
A heavy barreled 30/06 is a good 1000 yard rifle with a couple of qualifiers. First, it is hard to get a 30/06 to shoot quite as well as a 308. Second, recoil, with loads which perform significantly better than the 308, is significantly greater. This absolutely affects accuracy.
The reasons for the comparative accuracy shortcomings are difficult to identify. It may simply be that the higher muzzle pressures resulting from the larger quantities of slower burning powders disturb the bullet on it's exit from the barrel. I do know that I had no problem getting similar SD's from both cartridges but the 308's definitely shot better. In fact, my 303 British match rifle easily outshot any of the 30/06's I tried. Regards, Bill
The reasons for the comparative accuracy shortcomings are difficult to identify. It may simply be that the higher muzzle pressures resulting from the larger quantities of slower burning powders disturb the bullet on it's exit from the barrel. I do know that I had no problem getting similar SD's from both cartridges but the 308's definitely shot better. In fact, my 303 British match rifle easily outshot any of the 30/06's I tried. Regards, Bill
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I have been lucky with the '06. have owned several and they have all shot very accurately. In fact, one of my most consistent shooters would do sub MOA at 1000yds. No better no worse then a 308.
Just the next larger case 308-3006-300WSM-300WM-etc. Use the case that delivers the velocity you need for the bullet you want to launch for the task you are trying to accomplish.
chamber design has more affect on accuracy then case capacity.
Jerry
Just the next larger case 308-3006-300WSM-300WM-etc. Use the case that delivers the velocity you need for the bullet you want to launch for the task you are trying to accomplish.
chamber design has more affect on accuracy then case capacity.
Jerry
And yet, it's my contention that case design has (within reason) #### to do with accuracy capability. Hence the 308, 30-40 Krag, 300 Savage, and 303 British are all capable of accomplishing about the same thing. I have had rifles in all these calibers (except the 300 Savage. I just never bothered.) which were quite capable of 3/8 moa accuracy or better. I have never been able to achieve this with a 30/06. I have had some pretty good shooting 06's but not that good. Regards, Bill.
I don't believe that a .308 is more "inherently" accurate than a 30/06.If you have a properly build gun;it doesn't matter which of the two you use.Both are more capable than the majority of shooters using them.The reason why the .308 is choosen over a 30/06 is that the latter doesn't have enough of a velocity advantage.If somebody wants to step up in power to reduce winddrift then,very likely you'd go with any of the .300 mags.-Rainer
The .308 is used more because it was the latest NATO round that works OK at 1000 yards. The 5.56 will work however there is not a really good NATO bullet (too light) that that works out to a 1000 yards, for that you need a fast twist and an 80 gr bullet. Bisley and Palma competitions call for .308 only, 155 gr max. Bisley also has issued ammo as the norm, so .308/7.62 is the issue. At one time Palma competitions were also issued ammo with the host country supplying .308/7.62 only.
If you want fast and reduced wind drift, there are lots of 6.5 chamberings that will out shoot the .308's, without going to a magnum.
If you want fast and reduced wind drift, there are lots of 6.5 chamberings that will out shoot the .308's, without going to a magnum.
Rainer,
To think the 308 is not inherently more accurate than the 30/06 is fine but illustrates a lack of knowledge as to what the real accuracy capability of the two cartridges is.
It is entirely possible, even reasonable, to build a 308 which is capable of .2 moa accuracy or better. This not at long range, of course, because the shooters are not capable of producing this level of accuracy at long range.
I have nevr seen a 30/06 which was capable of much better than .5 moa. I do think it should be possible to make a 30/06 which would manage 3/8 but I think 1/4 would be absolutely unattainable. Keep in mind, a 1/4 moa rifle is not one which fired a 1/4 moa group one evening in May two years ago. It is one which can be reasonably expected to produce a group of 1/4 moa or better any time the conditions permit. Also, such accuracy does not discount flyers!
So, at these levels, the 308 is definitely more accurate than the 30/06.
At long range, where superb accuracy is more on the order of 3/4 moa, the 30/06 can manage but at a cost. The velocity is significantly greater than that of the 308 (on the order of 150-200fps) but this increased velocity is not enough to make up for a 1/4 moa (or more) accuracy deficit.
Now, in all fairness, the 308 is also less accurate when loaded to work at 1000 yards. It is not all that common to see accuracy at much better than 3/4 moa when using bullets and loads required to make it to 1000 yds. Nonetheless, I have always been able to achieve significantly better accuracy with 190 -200 grain bullets in the 308 than in the 30-06. In one case, this was tested with the same barrel on the same action and stock. The barrel was initially in 30/06 then was set back and rechambered to 308.
As I have stated before, recoil, even if it doesn't hurt you, can cause you to lose a point now and then just because it penalizes you for a poor hold or follow through. The effects of greater recoil are insidious and often the effect is a surprise but it is there nonetheless.
As much as I like the 30/06 as a cartridge, I won't be trying it again at long range. To be perfectly honest, except where it's use is mandated I won't use the 308 either! Regards, Bill.
To think the 308 is not inherently more accurate than the 30/06 is fine but illustrates a lack of knowledge as to what the real accuracy capability of the two cartridges is.
It is entirely possible, even reasonable, to build a 308 which is capable of .2 moa accuracy or better. This not at long range, of course, because the shooters are not capable of producing this level of accuracy at long range.
I have nevr seen a 30/06 which was capable of much better than .5 moa. I do think it should be possible to make a 30/06 which would manage 3/8 but I think 1/4 would be absolutely unattainable. Keep in mind, a 1/4 moa rifle is not one which fired a 1/4 moa group one evening in May two years ago. It is one which can be reasonably expected to produce a group of 1/4 moa or better any time the conditions permit. Also, such accuracy does not discount flyers!
So, at these levels, the 308 is definitely more accurate than the 30/06.
At long range, where superb accuracy is more on the order of 3/4 moa, the 30/06 can manage but at a cost. The velocity is significantly greater than that of the 308 (on the order of 150-200fps) but this increased velocity is not enough to make up for a 1/4 moa (or more) accuracy deficit.
Now, in all fairness, the 308 is also less accurate when loaded to work at 1000 yards. It is not all that common to see accuracy at much better than 3/4 moa when using bullets and loads required to make it to 1000 yds. Nonetheless, I have always been able to achieve significantly better accuracy with 190 -200 grain bullets in the 308 than in the 30-06. In one case, this was tested with the same barrel on the same action and stock. The barrel was initially in 30/06 then was set back and rechambered to 308.
As I have stated before, recoil, even if it doesn't hurt you, can cause you to lose a point now and then just because it penalizes you for a poor hold or follow through. The effects of greater recoil are insidious and often the effect is a surprise but it is there nonetheless.
As much as I like the 30/06 as a cartridge, I won't be trying it again at long range. To be perfectly honest, except where it's use is mandated I won't use the 308 either! Regards, Bill.
- Location
- Hillbilly shack in the boonies
7 mag
168 match
168 matchLeeper,are you saying that a 30/06 is not going to do any better than 3/4 moa??I have fired enough 30/06s at long range (800m)to know that it'll do better than that,for a price of $350.-,which was a Steyr heavy barrel put onto a Steyr Professional (which is not even a match rifle).Another rifle was mauser action,Walther polygon barrelled custom rifle that shot 1/2 moa anytime weather conditions weren't a problem.When we talk about inherent accuracy then the .300 win mag would be a big no no with it's short neck and it still delievers the goods at many long range shooting events.-Rainer
I think Leeper is on the target. I agree with him that ALL the shots count and a 1/4 minute gun really means ALL the time! After you shoot competitively for 35 years or so you really learn to sort out what really matters and what does not. If you don't figure it out you will NOT be competitive and if you can not be painfully honest with yourself you will not be with the big boys! When people tell me that a so and so with factory ammo will shoot 1/4 moa... you can guess what I say. I know a few F shooters that I would happily give a 223 and put put up against almost all (I know there are a few exceptions) CGN with a small howitzer.....recoil is a bugger!
Rainer,
That is exactly what I'm saying. I saying it because I have never seen one which would do better. Keep in mind, I'm speaking in the context of a fullbore or "F" class rifle. This means a 3/4 moa rifle is one which shoots 10 shots into 3/4 moa or less ON DEMAND. A rifle which occasionally fires a 3 or even 5 shot group of 7 inches at 800 meters is NOT a 3/4 moa rifle.
In "F" class shooting one of the best tests of pure rifle accuracy is probably those matches fired on the international target at 300 meters. Conditions are very readable and calm, clear conditions seem to be more likely. The x-ring is about 5/8 moa. The course of fire is five, twenty shot targets. A true 1/2 moa rifle is required to shoot a 200-20x ( a true 1/2 moa shooter as well!). In essence what is required is a 1/2moa (or better) shooting "system". Since the shooter is a major part of this "system", how he (or she) can handle the rifle and it's behaviour is important. This is why I frequently harp a bit about the insidious effect of recoil on a shooter's concentration and technique. I venture to say there ain't no 30/06 that's going to do it. If a rifle/cartridge combo won't do it at 300M, it sure won't do it at 900. Regards, Bill
That is exactly what I'm saying. I saying it because I have never seen one which would do better. Keep in mind, I'm speaking in the context of a fullbore or "F" class rifle. This means a 3/4 moa rifle is one which shoots 10 shots into 3/4 moa or less ON DEMAND. A rifle which occasionally fires a 3 or even 5 shot group of 7 inches at 800 meters is NOT a 3/4 moa rifle.
In "F" class shooting one of the best tests of pure rifle accuracy is probably those matches fired on the international target at 300 meters. Conditions are very readable and calm, clear conditions seem to be more likely. The x-ring is about 5/8 moa. The course of fire is five, twenty shot targets. A true 1/2 moa rifle is required to shoot a 200-20x ( a true 1/2 moa shooter as well!). In essence what is required is a 1/2moa (or better) shooting "system". Since the shooter is a major part of this "system", how he (or she) can handle the rifle and it's behaviour is important. This is why I frequently harp a bit about the insidious effect of recoil on a shooter's concentration and technique. I venture to say there ain't no 30/06 that's going to do it. If a rifle/cartridge combo won't do it at 300M, it sure won't do it at 900. Regards, Bill
