Karabiner 98K

B

Bart212

CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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Ottawa
Hi,

I've recently acquired a German WWII - ?East German Referb? 98K sniper rifle.
I'd like to figure out a bit of the history and just find out how original and significant this piece is.

Here's some of the spec's.

WaffenAmpt Numbers:

Rifle duv 41
Receiver WaA214
Barrel WaA823 (W/41 also stamped on the top, barrel measures 7.90 and a big U on the right side)
Rear Sight WaA26
Floor Plate WaA280
Scope* Voigtländer Braunschweig (and Crystal Clear)
42144
SKOPAR F 41/2x
Stock Laminated (Note: I tried to put a cleaning rod in it but it wouldn't go all the way in, only 1-2cm)
Matching Forced Match

Note*: The scope is in good shape but the focus knob is a little loose and has a little play in it. How can I fix this? and the Elevation knob runs free there isn't a 'click' to it. Is it missing something? Like a little piece of steel for the knurrling to catch onto, there is a little screw in the back but it's not touching the knob. Also I'm missing the Windage wrench, does anyone know where I can find one?
I will post a few detailed pics on the weekend.

Thanks

Bart
 
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ok, well being "new to this stuff" is not a great way to run out and buy a Nazi sniper rifle. Fakes outnumber the real ones, and yours looks suspiciously like a total fake to me, sorry to say it. I think if you paid more than $700, you've been ripped off.

That is NOT an East German anything. It's a $300 Russian Capture rifle that someone installed what looks like a repro scope mount on. The scope may or may not be real - we'd need to see better pictures.

The stock is pre-war, but has a late-war cross bolt on it. That alone would ring alarm bells for an experienced collector. The butt has been seriously sanded and a serial number applied. This is a dead giveaway that the rifle started it's civilian life as a ubiquitous Russian Capture refurb with electro-pencilled parts. These guns were selling for $250 last year from SIR Mail order and recently in the $300 range at Tradex.

The gun has a late-war cocking piece that would not go with a pre-war stock and the safety is wrong I can tell all this from your undetailed photos. I'm loath to say what I may find out about your gun if you post closeups of the markings.

I'm sure it's a nice shooter, but I hope you didn't pay alot.

A duv41 should have a cupped buttplate. WaA280, in 1941 was JP Sauer und Sohn, so that's mismatched.

Sounds like your scope needs a refurb, assuming it's genuine and worth fixing, set aside at least $500 for that work.
 
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It's called a K98k Long Side Rail Mount System which I believe wasn't introduced until sometime late in 1943 and early 1944. I've never seen one with the code mark duv41 (1941 mfg by Berlin-Lubecker), only "bcd" Gustloff Werke.

All of the sub components on a "duv41" should be marked with Waffenamt 214, not other WaA numbers.

The cut out space for of the long side rail mount on this piece appears to me to be way to "squarish", compared to original period pieces. I've also never seen a K98k Long Side Rail Mount with a Voigtländer Braunschweig scope.

Just my opinion, but I think this is a pure put together. Hope this helps somewhat....

Regards,
Badger

Edit: Sorry, I see I was typing and posting at the same time claven2 was. He's probably not far off on value to a collector. It might be a nice shooter though.
 
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Claven Thanks a lot for the expertise. and sorry about the very poor pics I'll post detailed ones on the weekend. I thought that maybe there might be a little suspision, but I wanted it anyway.

Just to add a bit more info, that I don't know if it would make a difference. There are two little 'dowel' type steel pins in the side of the receiver that interface with the mount. Could that at least mean that it is an original sniper from WWII but then obviously went through a referb or could it have been turned into a sniper at referb? How can we tell? as didn't make a majority of the snipers?

$700.00 Claven, isn't the scope worth that?
 
Bart,

IF the scope is genuine ww2 AND in perfect working order, yes. $700. I think your scope is a commercial civilian scope needing a refurb, making it a $50 e-bay item.

I really hate to tell guys things like this, but it's better I not sugar coat it - trust me.

This is why I always tell people - BUY BOOKS FIRST!!! A $70 book by Richard Law on the K98k sniper rifle could have saved you lots of money and grief by letting you know not to overspend on this rifle.
 
And PS: a duv41 could NEVER have been an original long side rail sniper. They weren't invented until 1943, as Badger points out.

A 1941 sniper would likely have been a turret mount.
 
Claven2 said:
And PS: a duv41 could NEVER have been an original long side rail sniper. They weren't invented until 1943, as Badger points out.

A 1941 sniper would likely have been a turret mount.
Click to expand...

correct.

BNZ is the correct code for side rail.

IMHO that scope looks too new to be original. Im guessing overall value would be in the 650-750 ballpark.
 
IIRC, the Repro LSR K98 sniper on the EE was listed at $1300 on the weekend for a day and then was gone.

There was also a repro or a Czech LSR Mount listed for $200 or $300?

If you go to:

http ://ioinc.us/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=IO&Product_Code=K98K0090-SNIPER&Category_Code=Long+Guns

they list LSR Repro snipers for $1395 USD with NEW MADE REPRO SCOPE AND MOUNT, (includes labor)

and IO sells RC K98's for $219 USD.

In Canada, A RC K98 from P&S will run you $375+Tax+Shipping (~$475), and Mount ~ $200 or $300, and Scope $? (It's Original not Repro), and $$$ gunsmith fees and $$$ labor (unless you do it yourself, but no one works for FREE, maybe BEER!!!).

Let us know how it shoots, should be fun at the Range! Show us more close up pics.
 
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Bart212 said:
Hi,

I've recently acquired a German WWII - ?East German Referb? 98K sniper rifle.
I'd like to figure out a bit of the history and just find out how original and significant this piece is.

Here's some of the spec's.

WaffenAmpt Numbers:

Rifle duv 41
Receiver WaA214
Barrel WaA823 (W/41 also stamped on the top, barrel measures 7.90 and a big U on the right side)
Rear Sight WaA26
Floor Plate WaA280
Scope* Voigtländer Braunschweig (and Crystal Clear)
42144
SKOPAR F 41/2x
Stock Laminated (Note: I tried to put a cleaning rod in it but it wouldn't go all the way in, only 1-2cm)
Matching Forced Match

Note*: The scope is in good shape but the focus knob is a little loose and has a little play in it. How can I fix this? and the Elevation knob runs free there isn't a 'click' to it. Is it missing something? Like a little piece of steel for the knurrling to catch onto, there is a little screw in the back but it's not touching the knob. Also I'm missing the Windage wrench, does anyone know where I can find one?

K98EastGerman011.jpg

K98EastGerman002.jpg


I will post a few detailed pics on the weekend.

Thanks

Bart
Click to expand...


If it shoots fine, I would hunt with it and take it to the range at least once a week. The 8mm is on par with the 30-06 and can be used for the same sized game.If you handload and don't have any 8mm brass,it can be easily made from 30-06 cases.One trip through the 8mm FL sizing die and trim to length,you now have lots of 8mm brass. Happy shootin' and plug a deer or black bear with it,they will never know the diff between the 06 and the 8mm.:50cal:
 
I am pretty sure the Voigtländer scope is a pre-war commercial hunting scope. What appears to be a brass ring on the front objective is a tipoff and so is the elevation turret. Definitely not a WW2 German production scope, though a lot of prewar commercial scopes were pressed into service early in the war. I have seen similar scopes go on German Ebay for about $200-300.

Has someone electropenciled a serial number onto the mount?
 
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Guys can debate the worth all day long, but bottom line - no military assembled that rifle. It's been humped. Period.

I only hope you find enough enjoyment from it to justify whatever price you paid.

Cheers.
 
Just a personal comment .... ;)

I think this is the second thread I've seen in the last two weeks (the other was a virgin "unwrapped" No.4 Mk2 Enfield .. I think?), where a collector has jumped on buying a piece, apparently without doing a lot of research, only to come here after the fact looking for research and emotional purchase validation.

With so much experience and talent on here and across several web sites dedicated to collectors, plus clean "all correct" examples of high end collector's pieces available for free viewing in the Milsurp Knowledge Library, I have no idea why someone would lay down their hard earned cash without at least spending a few hours gathering information about the piece being offered for sale.

If it's an impulse buy, or your worried about someone else jumping on it before you do, then ask for an "Inspection and Return" capability if it proves out to be not correct, or as advertised.

In this particular case Bart212, it's certainly a "basement" made piece and is of little value except as a shooter. If more than $600-$700 was paid for it, perhaps you can ask the seller for a refund on the delta, but unless an "Inspection and Return" period was part of the deal, then unfortunately the generally accepted rule of "Caveat Emptor" applies.

Again, not to offend anyone and it's just my two cents worth ... :D

Regards,
Badger
 
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Bart212 said:
Yes
Click to expand...

Then sadly, a line has been crossed between "caveat emptor" and outright misrepresentation.

That is a recently made reproduction mount mated to an incorrect rifle using a an old commercial (ie, NOT sniper) scope. The EP was likely added by the seller to try to give it some post-war refurb sniper provenance.

In short, a humped-up fake. Was it disclosed to you as a recent reproduction, or as an "East German refurbished sniper"?

If the latter, you may be a victim of fraud.

If you feel you overpaid for a representative shooter, I would suggest contacting the seller to see if anythign can be worked out amicably.

Than, if you really need a genuine German K98k sniper, save up about $4000+ and spend $70 on the appropriate reference book.
 
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Well I was told that the mount was Czech made and that it could be an East-Germand Referb the seller didn't exactly know for sure though (that should have shead some light on it right there though). But in any case it still looks cool. but it's a shame that it was humped-up. I'll take it to the range sometime and show you guys what it can do.

Claven: How do you know for sure that the scope is not a true sniper?
How can we tell if the rifle it's self isn't an original sniper but then humped-up into one?
 
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Without a doubt, it is a recent put together and a Repro Sniper (just like the put together IO Inc. one posted in the USA), but was advertised as such as being a repro if you saw the ad in the CGN EE also with the possibility of being an East German sniper (but seller wasn't sure) - and it's not that either.

Sum of the Parts:

RC K98 - $475 (P&S)

Scope - $200-$300

Mount - $200-$300

Gunsmith Labor - $ ?

Shipping - $?

It gets close to $1300 if you do it your self today.
 
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Bart212 said:
Claven: How do you know for sure that the scope is not a true sniper?
How can we tell if the rifle it's self isn't an original sniper but then humped-up into one?
Click to expand...

1) The Czechs never made LSR snipers post-war.
2) duv41 rifles were not made into LSR snipers by the Germans, or anyone else except maybe the Israelis, but hte mount is very different.
3) NO RC Mausers were imported in sniper configuration. Those rifles that started life as snipers were "de-sniperized" by the Russians.
4) I can find NO reference of any legitimate ww2 sniper scopes marked "Voigtländer Braunschweig"
5) A real LSR would have the serial numbers STAMPED (not ep'd) into the mount and the scope would have a nazi production code and a military serial number from a known range applied to it. The mount and probably the scope would bear waffenampts.

I could go on, but those are the glaring problems...
 
Coyote Ugly said:
but was advertised as such as being a repro if you saw the ad in the CGN EE.
Click to expand...

Never saw the ad. Sorry. ;)

If it was advertized as a repro, then so be it. But a repro does NOT equal "east german sniper".

The repro mounts, as far as I know, are made in the Ukraine, not the Czech Republic.
 
Claven2 said:
Never saw the ad. Sorry. ;)

If it was advertized as a repro, then so be it. But a repro does NOT equal "east german sniper".

The repro mounts, as far as I know, are made in the Ukraine, not the Czech Republic.
Click to expand...

I saw the ad one night on the weekend and was gone the next day.
 
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