Kel Tec or EMF?

[djmay71]

I would start a poll, but I'd rather hear peoples responses then look at the numbers.

Anyways, I've dwindled my next firearm choice down to two. The Kel Tec SU16F and the EMF JR Carbine.

Why these two rifles? See my pros below.

Kel Tec SU16F
-Folds down for storage, transportation
-Uses 5.56/.223 Rem- a common cartridge that I already use in my Savage.
-LAR15 mags. Need I say more?

EMF JR Carbine
-Can use the AR accessories
-Uses Glock 17 mags. Gives me more reason to buy more mags for my Glock 17.
-9mm round can be had at several places in my area

What about cons? I can't think of too many off the top of my head, except- would folding the SU16F cause your scope and/or sights (if attached) you loose zero?

 

[Silveragent]

I own the SU16F and have shot it on the past two weekends.. about 300 rounds through it. I can only provide a newbie's pov, though.

Cons
-- plastic default mags are garbage. So yes, use the LARs or any other metal mags. I broke one. Kel-Tec is shipping me out a replacement.
-- the bipod that is hidden in the foregrip is a pure gimmick. You wouldn't want to cut a steak with your swiss army knife either but at least you have a blade if you need one. Me, I am looking forward to replacing the foregrip altogether.
-- when deploying the bipod obviously barrel is exposed and you do not want to touch it, brush it
-- deploying the bipod is quite tricky. You have to press down on the two release buttons with the same amount of force or one 'wing' will deploy and you can't get the other one to deploy and you have to snap them shut again to try again
-- the spring that holds the bipod open is like an oversized paperclip and comes loose all the time and gets lost. I've since stored it away in a package of loose items as I never intend to use the bipod again.
-- I don't have any personal experience with semi autos besides shooting my friends' CZs and his SL8 and in my two weekend's worth of shooting I got a fair share of FTF and FTE with American Eagle 55gr FMJ. But others have reported none. I reserve my judgement until I've shot more.
-- I'm too much of a garbage shot right now to say anything about accuracy
-- no included sling attach points
-- safety is the push button kind located behind the trigger guard (different strokes)
-- it's begging for a muzzle brake. Climb on a fast second shot is noticeable
-- cannot clean bore from the chamber side even with complete breakdown. Have to clean it from the other side. Already broke an attachment on my cleaning rod trying to force a patch down it. I guess I should switch to boresnake.
-- pencil thin barrel
-- when proving safety you can't show chamber is empty by locking it open unless magazine is inserted. You can do this without magazine you have to press the magazine indent (? whatever this is called at the feeding end at the bottom of the receiver) and pull back on the charging handle which then locks to show open. Not really obvious and I don't believe it is in the manual.
-- the hitch pin that locks the folding stock open has to be removed by poking it out from the other side with a tool like a pen or the pointy end of the cartridge. Others have already replaced it with a hitch pin that has a ring.

Pros
-- extremely light.
-- no complaints about the trigger
-- recoil very manageable.
-- I've cleaned it after each shoot and no real noticeable gunk .. Patches come back pretty clean
-- aforementioned gimmick bipod
-- the plastic foregrip and the stock are actually not bad. It's not top quality plastic and it's going to get marked up but it feels okay. The foregrip does heat up noticeably with each shot but not too hot that I felt the need to wear gloves (but wise to do so because of the exposed barrel).
-- can replace stock and foregrip with a railed foregrip and AR-style extending stock and pistol grip
-- short picatinny top rail included
-- Zytel receiver material seems pretty solid but will eventually get marked up
-- can store garbage 5 rnd plastic mags in the stock for emergency backup
-- iron sights with ghost ring shoot pretty well.
-- Kel-Tec seems pretty responsive to problems. I emailed them about my broken mag and two days later they agreed to ship me out a replacement.

 

[Technology Direct]

when proving safety you can't show chamber is empty by locking it open unless magazine is inserted. You can do this without magazine you have to press the magazine indent (? whatever this is called at the feeding end at the bottom of the receiver) and pull back on the charging handle which then locks to show open. Not really obvious and I don't believe it is in the manual.

Really? Good to know. Thanks!

 

[luke s]

They are both good rifles from what I hear, but .223 is vastly different from 9mm.

Do you plan to shoot further than 100m? then 9mm is not ideal
Is cost of ammo your main concern? 9mm is cheaper

The advantage of the JR is that you can use the same mags as your glock. less mags = less $$ spent, less gear to take to range

You also noted in your pros list that the JR can take AR accessories, but you can get an AR stock and quad rail fore-end for the SU-16 as well

 

[Silveragent]

Really? Good to know. Thanks!

The first time at the range the RO didn't believe me that it couldn't lock open without the magazine and we both looked at it and couldn't figure it out. So he gave me an orange flag to insert into the open chamber to prevent it from shutting.

The second time I accidentally had it open without the mag and then figured it out. When the magazine is inserted it presses an indent in the feeding end (the mag well). Instead of the magazine you can press it with your finger and pull the charging handle back to lock it open.

 

[djmay71]

They are both good rifles from what I hear, but .223 is vastly different from 9mm.

Do you plan to shoot further than 100m? then 9mm is not ideal
Is cost of ammo your main concern? 9mm is cheaper

The advantage of the JR is that you can use the same mags as your glock. less mags = less $$ spent, less gear to take to range

You also noted in your pros list that the JR can take AR accessories, but you can get an AR stock and quad rail fore-end for the SU-16 as well

The purpose of this purchase would be an all-around fun-to-plink rifle in tacticool guise. I'm leaning towards the JR for several reasons:
-Its essentially a pistol calibre AR, with a longer barrel.
-No need to purchase a fore-end to attach accessories, like one would have to do with an SU16F.
-3 Mags came with my Glock- so I'd already have 3 mags for this.

A few more questions though- regarding 9mm itself- its effective range would be what? In a hunting situation- what size game can be HUMANELY dispatched,with a 9mm? Small game only, I'd have to think.
Now add +P powders to the mix. It would obviously effect velocities, but is it worth the extra cash on ammo to get a bulk order of +P 9mm from SFRC? How much of an impact would it have over standard commercial ammo?

 

[luke s]

dont quote me on this but I believe that 9mm +p ammo roughly gives 100 extra FPS out of a handgun barrel.

the longer barrel of the JR should give you around 200 extra FPS over short handgun barrel with standard ammo. Not sure what the +p effect would be with the longer barrel thought.

maybe someone with a JR and a chrony can chime in here, but I have a feeling the +p would not give you much more advantage hunting small game

as for small game, are you thinking rabbit? If a .22 can take small game, I think 9mm would be fine as well. if you are thinking coyote size game, im not sure, maybe depending on range.

I also dont know too much about minimum caliber for hunting, or if there is such a restriction.

 

[djmay71]

dont quote me on this but I believe that 9mm +p ammo roughly gives 100 extra FPS out of a handgun barrel.

the longer barrel of the JR should give you around 200 extra FPS over short handgun barrel with standard ammo. Not sure what the +p effect would be with the longer barrel thought.

maybe someone with a JR and a chrony can chime in here, but I have a feeling the +p would not give you much more advantage hunting small game

as for small game, are you thinking rabbit? If a .22 can take small game, I think 9mm would be fine as well. if you are thinking coyote size game, im not sure, maybe depending on range.

I also dont know too much about minimum caliber for hunting, or if there is such a restriction.

I'm talking rabbit to medium size fox- but not yet. I don't even have my hunting papers yet, I just like to keep my options open.
And yes- I do own a bolt action.