Kimber Fail to Extract or Fail to Eject Problem

torontogunguy

torontogunguy

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Pardon my ignorance, but would someone please explain the difference between an EXTERNAL and an INTERNAL extractor on the Kimbers?

I have a Kimber Target II Stainless - First several hundred rounds no problem (purchased used) - now every tenth shot fails to extract the spent cartridge in the chamber. It was every third shot... but a good cleaning of the firing pin assembly block, which contains the extractor, helped a lot. This is not part of Kimber's recommended cleaning regimen, by the way. I tried to break down the firing pin assembly to remove the extractor, but while all the other bits and pieces came apart just nicely ... the extractor would not come out as it should have. I was advised it was probably crud build up in the channel that the extractor sits in... and that this could also be the reason for FTE problems. I was advised to soak the assembly in varsol or crud remover and then give a really good cleaning. I was advised that this will clean up my problem. I was also advised to replace the extractor with a Wilson Combat one and to replace the recoil spring likewise. This would solve my problem. I am about to do all this.

Here is my proposed course of action:
1. Soak firing pin assembly in crud release or varsol or WD40 or something to loosen up the crud in the extractor channel and remove the extractor.
2. Replace the extractor with either a new one or one of these "super replacements" from Wilson Combat or whoever.
3. Replace the recoil spring - I have two that were given to me with the gun.... and I was told to use one for 124g bullets and the other for 147g bullets (45 ACP). Was not told why as I was a newbie at the time and I did not know better. I am guessing (as a gunsmith in training here.... not by choice) that I may have a weak recoil spring, resulting in the slide coming back so hard and so fast that it is ripping the extractor right off the shell casing instead of extracting it. Like rapidly removed your hands from, say, the steering wheel of your car. It's easier to hold onto the steering wheel while removed your fingertips slowly, versus ripping them off quickly.

So.... anyone have any other suggestions?

I own a Kimber Target II in Stainless - it is a tack driver, even rapid fire.
I own a Kimber Custom II as well - a tack driver in .45. So far ahead of the Glock and the Colt that I cannot even comment on a comparison. The Kimbers (as they say) are the best single shot tack drivers I own. No problems with this .45 Custom II pistol (YET).

I note that when I insert a 9mm shell casing in the breechface (?) underneath the extractor it is a loose fit on my Target II; when I do the same with a 10mm casing it seems to be a tight fit. Is it possible that Kimber has inadvertantly shipped a bunch of 10mm firing pin assemblies/slides on their 9mm pistols? It would seem a plausible explanation! Very plausible, since there are no markings to differentiate the two sizes whatsoever. None. The only thing that is marked on the slide assembly, to do with sizing, is the barrel itself.

Any suggestions as to the course to take would be appreciated.
I purchased both guns 'used'. I am not adverse to installing higher quality parts myself and am very comfortable doing so despite the fact that I am not a gunsmith per se. There are so few parts... c'mon guys. I used to take record players apart and put them back together when I was 7. A measly ole 1911 pistol is child's play to disassemble and reassemble (I think).

Truthfully. And honestly. I cannot bear the thought of parting with these Kimbers! I am in love. (Love is blind though). They are both tack drivers. I have tried nothing else that compares. If it doesn't FTE, I can fire 8 or 9 rounds rapid fire at 20 - 25 yards with the Stainless Target II within a 3" circle. Same with the .45. And I am a relatively new shooter in larger calibres.

Torontogunguy
 
torontogunguy said:
Pardon my ignorance, but would someone please explain the difference between an EXTERNAL and an INTERNAL extractor on the Kimbers?

Torontogunguy
Click to expand...

I am not familiar with Kimbers but I don't know of any firearm that has external and internal extractors...

Are you referring to an external extractor and an internal ejector?

One extracts the shell from the chamber the other causes the shell to be ejected from the port.
 
guntech said:
I am not familiar with Kimbers but I don't know of any firearm that has external and internal extractors...

Are you referring to an external extractor and an internal ejector?

One extracts the shell from the chamber the other causes the shell to be ejected from the port.
Click to expand...

Keeping in mind that I am a neophyte gunsmith in training (unprofessional) here in an attempt to troubleshoot my Kimbers...

Reading on some of the other forums that Kimber "went from internal extractors to external extractors and then back again to internal extractors when they realized the external ones were causing grief"....

I am with you. The only extractors that I have ever seen I would have to classify as EXTERNAL. So.. hence, my question. With regard to Kimbers, what the heck is the difference? Nothing on the Kimber website to suggest a difference so I am going to call them today and ask.

And perhaps place an order for a new one to replace mine in case it is broken or worn. And some new recoil springs as well. And some advice on how the heck to get the extractor out of the firing pin block assembly. I will not yank it out... it should be coming out easily I am sure. Probably crud stuck in the hole that the extractor sits in.... the Kimber manual suggests NEVER breaking the gun down beyond slide removal, etc. MISTAKE! The firing pin assembly block is a piece of cake to disassemble and it should be cleaned every time the slide is removed for cleaning. I am also going to get out the dremel with a polishing head and polish the feed ramp and chamber to ensure no crud or oxidation is giving me grief. Must be careful not to remove any metal of course.

What I am looking for, specifically here, is anyone who has had the same experience with Kimber Series II guns with EXTERNAL extractors... which is what the other forums seem to be pointing to as the issue.
 
Hey Guys
On the typical 1911, the extractor is inserted from the back of the slide into a hole and is held in by the firing pin block. An external extractor is on the outside of the slide and held in with some sort of roll pin.
Hope this helps.
hs
 
Extractors do just that. They ONLY extract the spent case from the chamber,
NOT eject it from the port.
An internal extractor is contained with in the slide and can only be seen
when the slide is open.
External extractor can be seen always (slide open or closed). It's the
horizontal bar flush with the slides right side at the rear of the port. The bent
'hooked' portion extends all the way into the chamber. Extractors are part of the slide.
The ejector is ALWAYS inside the gun/port on the left side and is part of the frame.
They vary in looks but are basically a pin shaped metal piece pointing
straight forward that repells the spent case out of the port from quick movement of the recoiling slide.
 
WithoutWarning said:
Extractors do just that. They ONLY extract the spent case from the chamber,
NOT eject it from the port.
An internal extractor is contained with in the slide and can only be seen
when the slide is open.
External extractor can be seen always (slide open or closed). It's the
horizontal bar flush with the slides right side at the rear of the port. The bent
'hooked' portion extends all the way into the chamber. Extractors are part of the slide.
The ejector is ALWAYS inside the gun/port on the left side and is part of the frame.
They vary in looks but are basically a pin shaped metal piece pointing
straight forward that repells the spent case out of the port from quick movement of the recoiling slide.
Click to expand...

BINGO!
In a nutshell!
Thank you very much. Armed with this information, we did another takedown of the slide and firing pin block and cleaned up a TON of crud in and about the extractor. If this does not resolve our issue with FTE's, we are going to try changing the recoil spring and replacing the extractor with a super duper one from Wilson or Brown. I think our issue, though, was crud and an half assed attempt to clean it up during a regular cleaning of the gun. The spring has probably has just about reached the end of its useful life... time to replace before the slide leaves us for good one day. There does not appear to be excessive wear on the extractor, but it MUST need replacing, right? Or why else would Wilson be selling them?

Thanks again.

Any suggestions as to other causes of failure to extract spent shell casings would be most welcome.
 
torontogunguy said:
BINGO!
There does not appear to be excessive wear on the extractor, but it MUST need replacing, right? Or why else would Wilson be selling them?
Click to expand...

Because they sell them ...

Extractors dont wear much, hard steel against brass. They do break once in a while.

One senario for replacing:
... take a malfunctioning dirty gun that needs a cleaning... clean it while installing a new extractor ... go test it and because it is now working well contribute it to the obvious fact it must have needed that new extractor. :D
 
For sure cleaning is the first step.... but with Kimbers they don't provide the instructions for breaking their guns down beyond removing the slide basically. One needs to hunt for the information to break down the firing pin/ejector assembly block and perhaps the trigger assembly and so on. There are special tools that one can purchase to assist but with a little common sense one can use what one has on hand. For example, for measuring trigger pull... spend $100 on a trigger pull guage or use a fishing 'scale', etc. Get a plastic staple remover to help remove the slide release which holds in the slide..... rather than poking around with something that is going to scratch. Lots of stuff to learn and play with. CLEANLINESS IS NEXT TO GODLINESS, especially with 1911's. That ramp should shine!

Hope the cleaning will solve our FTEx problems. If not we will put in a Wilson Combat extractor.

Other thing we have come across countless times is the recoil spring.... never being replaced. They should be replaced and/or adjusted regularly. Replaced when they need to be and changed for a more appropriate spring when necessary, based on the load one is using. Neither too little nor too much produce good results.... the spring needs to be 'just right'. Or the slide will not do its job properly.

Well, my 9mm Kimber Target II is just sitting and waiting to be tried out. Saturday at the latest. Can hardly wait.

Torontogunguy
Looking for Kimbers to buy/trade
Have lots of stuff for sale
 
First you need to get the extractor out. Use a long bronze punch (or, ugh - a screwdriver tip) to push the extractor tip/hook inside the tunnel from the front so that it can be pushed or pulled out to the rear. Now clean it thoroughly, and scrub out the tunnel in the slide. I have some NEAT brushes from Frank at CRAFM in Montreal for that. (Thank me later, Frank :)

Now reassemble and try the old case under the hook trick. Should be a firm push to insert and should stay there when vigorously shaking the slide. If not, lay the extractor on a flat steel surface with the hook facing up, and WHACK it with... OK, gently peen the inner surface with a small hammer to increase the bend. Try again. The correct tension is easy to determine. When you insert a safe firing pin (one cut in half) to hold everything in place, assemble the gun, and check feeding out of a magazine, too much extractor tension will cause a feed stoppage. Simple, right? When you get to Barrie, turn around, you've gone too far :) Seriously, the right tension is enough to extract reliably but not enough to cause a round to stop feeding when it touches the extractor hook! For those who possess a gauge, that's between 24 and 36 ounces of tension, depending on how smooth the edge of the hook is :) Of course if you have gone too far, just peen the other side until you're happy...

Have a go! BTW, these "old type" extractors do actually last if they're made of good heat treated steel and properly set up. I have a Caspian one here with 115,000 rounds on it in an open gun. Still will put all the empties in a neat little pile :)

Gunnar
 
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