Kneeling zeroes different from prone?

Keebler750

Keebler750

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Alberta!!!
I've been practicing like crazy for the upcoming OSA Service Championship. I just noticed this zero shift today at the range.

I zeroed the rifle prone, did some deliberates, some rapids, practiced mag changes in position, etc.

Then I did some kneeling slowfire to warm up, and then did kneeling snaps from low ready and rapids with mag changes in position. I've even got used to using the sling and doing right hand mag changes.

Looking at the targets, I've improved my kneeling groups considerably (enough that I won't be the area denial gunner at Connaught :) ), but the group that formed was 1 or 1.5 MOA low from my prone zero.

I fired prone again to verify. Dead center.

What's up with this, and how should I deal with it for this weekend's match? Should I just rely on my two sighters? I doubt I have time to figure out what I'm doing different without possibly messing myself up. Should I add a minute to my deliberate zeroes, use my two sighters (which might not show a trend), hold high or wait for my technique to catch up?

I'd appreciate any opinions!
 
Keebler!

I will make it this weekend after all. I was able to change plans last minute.

My suggestion, so many factors can be considered but for simplicity sake just use your sighters at the deliberates to dictate your point of aim for the snaps, rapid and run down. It will be hard enough to keep steady at kneeling to get a truly precise shot anyways. Make the points count at deliberate and hope for a steady hold on the rest.

Yes, your hit on prone will different from the others because of your hold and follow through. Different positions will dictate a different sighting technique.

See you there!!
Tön45
 
Every different position will give a different spot on the target. This is old news. You need a different zero for every position and distance. That is why sights are adjustable.
 
Well, Ian. I'm glad to have old-timers like you on the forum to help me. Thank you. I seriously thought sights were adjustable to compensate for leg length. THAT is why I come here to ask questions. I'm a newbie.

I'm shooting a Bushmaster 16" flat top AR with standard forend and sling swivel. So, yes, tension is probably an issue.

I should up the tension in prone (which I know is less right now) and test this theory.

TON!!! See you in Ottawa!!! I'm pumped!
 
I AM........ThE WOBBLeMastahhhhhhhh!!!!!!

:D

In other words, right now my hold is improved by the sling. I'd love to have the upper body stability to do it without. I was shooting 10MOA and I'm down to 3 or 4, which I'm very happy about. I might actually stay on paper this time.

LONGSHOT: I agree to both of your points, and will try to get better in both these areas as I progress.

Maybe I should be more careful about how much tension, because I must admit my kneeling sling is tighter than all heck. I don't have multiple adjustment marks set up on it......yet.
 
I zero at each distance I shoot, but from a bagged position. It is more stable and more indicative of where your mpi actually is with the ammo you are shooting. If my mpi changes in a different position with no other factors affecting the rifle, I'd be more inclinded to work on my shooting in that position rather than changing the zero at that distance.
 
My thoughts,

1. Confirm your zeroes for each range and each position. Don't be surprised when you have different zeroes for the same distance for the different positions.
- don't try and make them the same by modifying your positions or kit. Just apply the change by your sights or by aiming off.
- the zero for my 200m kneeling is about 2MOA higher than my prone
- be wary of what is actually causing the change in zero. It may not be an actual change in zero, but may be you moving your sight higher into the white nose and eye area of the figure 12 instead of keeping it on the chin Something that is natural when you need to "rush" your shots in the snaps.

2. If you are comfortable with the sling, then keep using it for now. The issue with the sling is that it will apply tension to the barrel and thus your zero will wander if you don't keep it consistent. The longer the distance, the more that this will be an issue.
- you shouldn't need to use the sling for tension in the prone position. Get the mag on the ground and work on a steady hold.
3. Have confidence in your sighters and adjust your aim or sights accordingly. Will power alone or just plain wishful thinking will not centre your group.

See you all on Saturday at 0715ish.
Catch me if you can,
Shelldrake
 
Heck ... don't forget about cheek weld either - how your eye lines up on the sights (open or scoped) between the different positions also makes a difference.

Longshot's advice is sound - get rid of the sling (or at least don't use it). Your clothing, stress, etc. are likely all variables ... and the sling puts tension on the barrel. How you react to the shot affects that tension ... so ... keep the Murphy factor low and reduce your variables.
 
I was shooting my 270WSM Winchester 'precision rig' the other day from a bipod and offhand. I think I just figured out that you rock back from recoil and affect POI during the time the bullet is still in the bore. Not rocket science, I know, but I think it really hit home about how you would have to reduce the variables, as was just pointed out.

Interesting stuff, guys.
 
My kneeling zero (at 200) is usually -2 clicks from my prone.

*shrug* Why? Dunno, it just is.

I'll ditto in on the "ditch the sling" vote. I tested it once a while back. I zeroed the rifle without the sling, fired some groups at 500 yards. I put the sling on, tensioned down, and got a nice, firm position, pulled the trigger, and my group printed quite nicely off the left side of the 4-foot.

Yes, I was able to pull my group over 2 feet left just using the sling.

Hence why I never use a sling.....if you're able to do it consistently, then go for it, if not, then good luck....

NS
 
If you have trouble with kneeling,try some different positions.I take my left hand and put it on my left knee,palm up.Then I put the bottom of the mag in my hand.It's a soft to hard connection that gives good stability and raises the level of the rifle up so that you don't have to scrunch over uncomfortably.
I find the biggest factor in the kneeling is fitness and flexibility.If you have a big gut bag hanging out you will never find a good position AND likewise if you aren't flexible enough to sit on your foot,you are putting yourself at a disadvantage.Try working on the flexibility and drop a few pounds.
 
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