You guys need to read some good books on african safari hunters. everything from old blackpowder muzzleloaders in 4 gauge to killing elephants with a 7mm calibre. the pros say that bullet diameter is the main confidence factor. the ..375 h&h and up are what these guys used for a number of years to dispatch problem elephant. the introduction of the .458 winchester magazine fed rifle was the answer to their prayers. the published velosities of 2150fps with a 500 grain bullet was more in the order of 1900 feet on a chrony. But the bullet dia. and the 1900 fps. dropped elephants with confidence. bear in mind that when you are out shooting elephants, your typical shot will be within 20 yards.
Knock out punch?
- Thread starter PaulT
- Start date
Fully half of the PHs I've hunted with or talked to used .375's for their backup guns. Many use the .458 Lott now, usually on a rechambered Brno, CZ or Winchester. The .458 Winchester might be a good cartridge with modern powders but most of these guys are stuck with whatever So-Chem will sell them, so want the bigger case. The .416 Rigby is highly regarded but the .416 Remington gets grouped with the .458 Win and a sneer. A theme that runs fairly consistantly is that PHs use what they have, can afford and what their clients are likely to leave free ammunition for. Most have a lot less interest in rifles than one would expect. Bullets, they talk about.
AND found a way to have people send him money to listen to his absolutely unoriginal opinions on everything from the birth of gunpowder to the "hunting applications for the .50 BMG". Makes you wonder......but then Jimmy Swaggert got rich, other world class BS'ers still rake it in - really makes you wonder, doesn't it.
And for the record, a well loaded .45-70 should make you unafraid of anything on this earth. barre none. I hear the caliber's just a fad though - like sleeping at night, it sure has one h*** of a record for a temporary fling!!!
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Anyone read any of the US army tests done on high velocity rounds striking living tissue? When the round (yes, even FMJ rounds) go through living tissue at a speed greater than 2000 FPS, they open up a massive cavity through the tissue. After the round (and it's shockwave) has passed through the tissue, the temporary cavity collapses into a small wound which is much closer to the size of the bullet. The size of the temporary cavity is huge, and anything important that it displaces (like organs) is never going to be anything but a bloodshot mess.
The point I am trying to bring up, is that a slow bullet with good expansion and modest foot pound rating can be lethal, and a high velocity bullet with no expansion can be even more devastating. The trick here is that the fast bullet will pass right through the target, so it won't be transferring all of it's energy to the target, so in essence, who cares about the foot pounds of energy?
The point I am trying to bring up, is that a slow bullet with good expansion and modest foot pound rating can be lethal, and a high velocity bullet with no expansion can be even more devastating. The trick here is that the fast bullet will pass right through the target, so it won't be transferring all of it's energy to the target, so in essence, who cares about the foot pounds of energy?
You should have a read of the Jan issue of Guns and Ammo. The article "Smackdown" is about Broad Meplat Bullets (BMB) and mentions TKO and Kieth's PF as well as the elusive M for momentum. The proof is in the pudding according to the PHs who have put down charging animals from mere feet away...as the saying goes, the velocity of a tornado can drive a straw through an oak and it will survive. Then a bulldozer idles into an oak and knocks it over dead. Think momentum!
Guys, you're really arguing this from the wrong angle. You're talking energy and tissue damage when really if you want to get your head into this you need to talk biology.
there is only one way to kill an animal - shut down it's brain. Everything else is a means to that end. Stopping it's heart works because it's brain shuts down. A cns hit works because the brain can't talk to the body any more. Blowing out its lungs stops oxygen flow to the brain. You can disable or immobilize the animal other ways, but really it's about stopping the brain.
And btw - cardio-pulminary systems are very different from animal to animal. A grizzlie's system is far more 'rugged' than a deers for example - grizzlies can go longer without their blood actually pumping without dying. Which is why cartridges that leave deep heavily bleeding wounds tend to be favoured, (they create a very sudden drop in pressure) and why you have to look at immobilizing the animal long enough for it's brain to shut down. What drops deer the best may not be what drops grizzes the fastest - so you have to remember to compare apples to apples.
A slow, fat bullet knocks a plug out of an animal and causes less damage to the tissue around the wound channel - which means less bruising and far more blood loss. Great for creating a very sudden drop in blood pressure which is a fantastic way to get an animal down fast.
Fast bullets that mushroom and make a nice shockwave tend to destroy a lot of tissue thru cavication and the transmission of the shockwave inside the animal (the barrel shaped bodies of deer and moose for example are excellent in containing the shockwaves and giving you CNS damage that will immobilize the animal while it dies), and they tend to be more likely to create clots and damage that lead to immediate brain disfunction. Deer have nice big lung areas and need lots of oxygen to function properly and cannot survive much damage to their cardio systems, and thats why smaller faster rounds that damage lots of tissue and cause heavy bruising and cns damage are noted for giving 'bang-flops'.
Slow bullets tend to penetrate softer tissue better. Fast bullets (if they hold together) tend to penetrate and shatter bone better, but due to the increased resistance on impact can perform less well on heavy soft tissues if they deploy too quickly unless they have lots of energy to spare.
This is a little simplistic of course - but you get the idea. There is no 'best' method - you need to look at how the bullet is trying to affect the biology and disrupt the animals functions, and determine if the cartridge in question is doing it's job well. There are slow fat bullet cartridges that are better than others, there are fast thin bullets that are better than others, and there is of course a point of diminishing return. And it will be slightly different for each species of animal.
Look at any round you like, look at how it's trying to disrupt the animals systems and how it will affect its' brain (blood loss, cns, clotting and bruising, dissue disruption, etc) and then look at the animal and how it's designed (how much tissue will you need to get thru, what kind of bone and fat will you have to get thru to , and you'll tend to get excellent results every time.
And the fact is - very few animals will long survive a good hit from ANY modern centerfire cartridge that's loaded with an appropriate bullet that maximizes it's characteristics if you hit it in the vitals. So with the possible exception of dangerous animals, we're arguing over something that makes very little difference. It's interesting to talk about - but really it makes virtually no difference in the field.
there is only one way to kill an animal - shut down it's brain. Everything else is a means to that end. Stopping it's heart works because it's brain shuts down. A cns hit works because the brain can't talk to the body any more. Blowing out its lungs stops oxygen flow to the brain. You can disable or immobilize the animal other ways, but really it's about stopping the brain.
And btw - cardio-pulminary systems are very different from animal to animal. A grizzlie's system is far more 'rugged' than a deers for example - grizzlies can go longer without their blood actually pumping without dying. Which is why cartridges that leave deep heavily bleeding wounds tend to be favoured, (they create a very sudden drop in pressure) and why you have to look at immobilizing the animal long enough for it's brain to shut down. What drops deer the best may not be what drops grizzes the fastest - so you have to remember to compare apples to apples.
A slow, fat bullet knocks a plug out of an animal and causes less damage to the tissue around the wound channel - which means less bruising and far more blood loss. Great for creating a very sudden drop in blood pressure which is a fantastic way to get an animal down fast.
Fast bullets that mushroom and make a nice shockwave tend to destroy a lot of tissue thru cavication and the transmission of the shockwave inside the animal (the barrel shaped bodies of deer and moose for example are excellent in containing the shockwaves and giving you CNS damage that will immobilize the animal while it dies), and they tend to be more likely to create clots and damage that lead to immediate brain disfunction. Deer have nice big lung areas and need lots of oxygen to function properly and cannot survive much damage to their cardio systems, and thats why smaller faster rounds that damage lots of tissue and cause heavy bruising and cns damage are noted for giving 'bang-flops'.
Slow bullets tend to penetrate softer tissue better. Fast bullets (if they hold together) tend to penetrate and shatter bone better, but due to the increased resistance on impact can perform less well on heavy soft tissues if they deploy too quickly unless they have lots of energy to spare.
This is a little simplistic of course - but you get the idea. There is no 'best' method - you need to look at how the bullet is trying to affect the biology and disrupt the animals functions, and determine if the cartridge in question is doing it's job well. There are slow fat bullet cartridges that are better than others, there are fast thin bullets that are better than others, and there is of course a point of diminishing return. And it will be slightly different for each species of animal.
Look at any round you like, look at how it's trying to disrupt the animals systems and how it will affect its' brain (blood loss, cns, clotting and bruising, dissue disruption, etc) and then look at the animal and how it's designed (how much tissue will you need to get thru, what kind of bone and fat will you have to get thru to , and you'll tend to get excellent results every time.
And the fact is - very few animals will long survive a good hit from ANY modern centerfire cartridge that's loaded with an appropriate bullet that maximizes it's characteristics if you hit it in the vitals. So with the possible exception of dangerous animals, we're arguing over something that makes very little difference. It's interesting to talk about - but really it makes virtually no difference in the field.
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- In a Wallow West of Edmonton.
http://www.familyfriendsfirearms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42802 Heres some reading for you. Not sure if somebody else already posted it.
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