Lapping Rings ???

T

TAC

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Is it necessary to lap rings ?
Even if it is not I would like to do it to my rifle so can someone tell me how it is done and what kind of tools are needed.
Is it done on the rifle ?
How do you know when you have done enough lapping ?
This rifle I want to do all the little things to . I will be very grateful for any help.
Thanks in advance
 
You can buy the lapping tools at brownells and I'm fairly certain that the lappint is done with the rings mounted to the rifle (it would have to be as your truing the rings to the base and action)
 
When we mount a scope on to steel rings in our shop we ALWAYS lap the rings. The rings are first mounted on the base then we lap the lower ring by pushing and pulling the lapping bar (available in one inch or 30mm) back and forth. We try to get 80% contact on the lower rings (you can determine this by the wear pattern on the rings). The lapping will also determine the alignment of the front and rear rings and if there is any windage adjustment we would use this to align the rings. Most people recommend only lapping the lower rings but we also install the upper portion around the lapping bar and work it back and forth and side to side. Aluminum rings can also be lapped but generaly not required and the clean up on the aluminum takes longer as the lapping compound will imbed itself in the ring an will have to scrubbed out. Lapping for us becomes common place because it is the best way of aligning the rings which would hve to be done anyway and also assures proper and near maximum contact with the scope body preventing damage and binding with the internal adjustments. Phil.
 
P of PDent said:
When we mount a scope on to steel rings in our shop we ALWAYS lap the rings. The rings are first mounted on the base then we lap the lower ring by pushing and pulling the lapping bar (available in one inch or 30mm) back and forth. We try to get 80% contact on the lower rings (you can determine this by the wear pattern on the rings). The lapping will also determine the alignment of the front and rear rings and if there is any windage adjustment we would use this to align the rings. Most people recommend only lapping the lower rings but we also install the upper portion around the lapping bar and work it back and forth and side to side. Aluminum rings can also be lapped but generaly not required and the clean up on the aluminum takes longer as the lapping compound will imbed itself in the ring an will have to scrubbed out. Lapping for us becomes common place because it is the best way of aligning the rings which would hve to be done anyway and also assures proper and near maximum contact with the scope body preventing damage and binding with the internal adjustments. Phil.
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if you lap leupold style rings with the windage type rear base how do you determine the position of the rear ring before you start lapping. after all the reason the rear ring is adjustable is to maintain the scope crosshairs in their centermost position ( as they come from the factory) and allow maximum windage adjustment, as well as crosshair alignment. do you mount the scope roughly to determine the rear ring position then remove the scope and start the lapping process? with dual dovetail mounts it would be much easier but the adjustment capabilty of the other option is lost.
 
bingo1010 said:
if you lap leupold style rings with the windage type rear base how do you determine the position of the rear ring before you start lapping. after all the reason the rear ring is adjustable is to maintain the scope crosshairs in their centermost position ( as they come from the factory) and allow maximum windage adjustment, as well as crosshair alignment. do you mount the scope roughly to determine the rear ring position then remove the scope and start the lapping process? with dual dovetail mounts it would be much easier but the adjustment capabilty of the other option is lost.
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I use a 24 inch piece of 1 inch tubing and with the front ring in place twist the tubing so it is centered above the barrel... then I slide the bottom rear ring half in place with the windage screws backed out.. then I lightly tighten the screws trying to keep the rear ring in line. Usually the rear ring half will be slightly "cocked" due to the way the windage screws tighten... with the tube in place I push down hard so the bottom of the ring is held flat against the base... then holding it there I install and tighten the top of the ring, then I tighten the windage screws a bit at a time, evenly very hard. This usually causes them to "set" into the ring half a bit and everything stays a bit squarer... I usually lap the rings fairly lightly making sure the edges are not biting... then I use powdered rosin in the rings. It works quite well.

If I am using dual dovetail rings, I sometime have to smack one base to one side and the other to the other side to get the 1 inch tubing lined up in the center of the barrel. There is a lot of movement before you tighten the bases down hard.
 
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I think Phil pretty much summed up the subject.

In addition to the forward / backward motion you can also roate the lapping rod at the same time. Use light pressure and allow the lapping compound to do its work.

Some of the worst alignment cases I have seen have been on Ruger rifles with Ruger rings.
 
Since we're on the topic I'll throw my question out.

Should I get Sako Optillock rings lapped or is there no need with the inserts being there? Im looking to put some good optics on Sako 75 and do not want any damage done to the scope Im putting on it??

Cheers!!
 
scott_r said:
Since we're on the topic I'll throw my question out.

Should I get Sako Optillock rings lapped or is there no need with the inserts being there? Im looking to put some good optics on Sako 75 and do not want any damage done to the scope Im putting on it??

Cheers!!
Click to expand...

No need to lap any of the "insert" rings.
 
I strongly believe NOT TO LAP rings because if the rings need lapping, there are issues elsewhere from action/base/ring alignment that need to be addressed.

From my understanding of mechanics, if a set of rings are lapped and still fit a scope tube tightly (yes a ring ID will get bigger once you lap them), that set up must be locked there for the duration. If those rings are removed from that base or adjusted for windage, the likelihood of the rings lining up again in a future install is slim to nil.

Rings shouldn't be lapped multiple times as this will enlarge the opening to the point that the scope is not held securely.

I change my scopes often. A one shot deal does not work for me. Especially at the cost of these components.

I also don't like the turn in ring and windage rear for a whole host of other reasons. One of which is ease of scope removal and reinstall.

The best ring set up for me are the Burris rings with inserts for WEAVER bases. The inserts ensure that any alignment issues are taken care of each and every time no matter which action or scope is installed. You can put these rings on actions that are visible 'off' without issue bending the scope.

The inserts also allow positive adjustment for windage and elevation with 100% contact. These adjustments stay put and can never wander as two opposing screws can.

These rings will also never mar up the scope tube simply because the scope tube is never bent/out of alignment. Yep, that is where ring marks come from.

With the Weaver rings, the scope can be removed easily with rings attached and reinstalled without losing zero. This is the only detachable ring set up that I have tried (and I have tried many) that can return to exactly point of aim. Most other set ups get you close usually within an MOA of POI. Not so good if that first shot is 600yds out.

All one needs to do is reinstall a scope several times with any popular quick release rings and see where that zero goes - pretty surprising how some rings do not return to POI after reinstall.

Sako optillock rings may very well have been the first rings with this concept but they fell short by not putting in offset inserts which really is the strength of this set up. The Sako rings will eliminate any alignment issues and will not mark up the scope tube. However, for the cost and lack of flexibility, I would go with the Burris rings instead.

Jerry
 
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Jerry, you bring up another good topic... checking scope bases for fit.

I sometimes have to bed the bases for a proper fit...

I prefer to lay a one piece base on the action and tighten the front screws and see if the back lifts when you do, or if the base actually bends down a bit. And then I do that with the rear screws and see how it lines up. Which ever one appears best is the one I will use to "locate" the other.

If I use the front as the best fit, I then paint the rear of the action with a thick coat of release agent. I clean the bottom of the base. Then applying either a steel or aluminum bedding compound to the bottom of the rear base. I very lightly tighten the front screws just enough to hold the base in place, and put the rear screws in(with release agent on them) just enough to engage the threads without any down pressure.

When the bedding is cured, I remove the base, clean up the excess, drill the compound out of the holes, and repeat the process on the front of the base, this time tighening the rear screws firmly, letting the front screws sit loose.

After curing, clean up the base, install it firmly using blue loctite on the screws.

Install the rings, getting them lined up as good as you can, and lightly lap them until you can see the bottoms of the rings appear equally lapped. I do nothing with the ring tops. I place a bit of powdered rosin in both rings halves before putting the scope in place, and in the ring tops, before putting them on the scope. I lubricate the ring screws with never sieze and snug them equally quite tight. If there are windage screws in the base, I use blue loctite on them, and snug them good, but not enough to distort them or the base.

If I am using a two piece base, it is a little trickier.. I use the rings in the bases, attached by a tube through the rings to locate the bases and bed them.
 
Dennis, that is why I love the Burris rings. It is a no brainer install. The inserts adjust to take up any alignment problems holding the scope tube true.

I have put these rings on some really screwed up actions and the scope mounted with zero issues. The worse one was so far off that the scope would not enter normal rings - imagine rings leaning in opposite directions when viewed from the rear.

The scope tube is never under any bending load. That is why these rings can be removed and installed without loosing zero and why most everything else can't (unless the action and bases are true or trued - rarely the case or major work to set up as you have described).

Your bedding of the bases also assumes that the screw holes are true front and rear. How often is that not the case? Not too big a deal with a one piece, you can muscle them in, but with a two piece base? We be having some fun...

I prefer the two piece bases so that I can load the actions easier/quicker. I am using a number of Farrell one piece bases which are taller and quite 'open'.

The typical Leupold/redfield one piece base sits low and covers the action way too much for my liking. Plus they have the inherent problems of this style of ring attachment.

Any scope with rings marks has been distorted during install. That is hard on the internals and if severe enough, affect the optical quality of the scope. Plus it doesn't look all that nice either.

Jerry
 
Wow lots of opinions here and I agree with most of the information. Remember that everyone has different requirements and time time frame to do the instalations. I know a varmint shooter that mounts his lower rings then uses a milling machine to perfectly align the front and back rings, seems a little extereme but to him anything else won't do. We install our scopes in a busy gun shop and have certain limitations as to how long we can have a technitian spend on any one mount. The most common center fire rifle install with a quality scope is usually done with Leupold standard ring and bases (front dovetail and rear windage adjustments) this gives us maximum flexibility in mounting the scope in alignment with the bore. We find that this system for the money and effort gives the best results for 98% of our customers. Most instalations are usually for the life of the scope and gun and are seldom removed and if then usually only one more time at best. Lapping in our experience has never caused fit problems by increasing the inside dia. of the ring allowing the scope to move beause it could't be tightened down hard enough. Remember the lapping bar is just a smooth round bar and the only abrasion is from the fine lapping compound similar to valve grinding compound. If the scope and rings are to be removed repeatedly then I agree this would not be the best system and I would probably go to a steel base and ring using the weaver system. Whatever works for your intended purpose and budget. You wouldn't believe the poor quality of scope instalations we see from some shops and individuals and the damage on the scope bodies from differnt styles of rings and bases including weaver style. The effort and time (and some previous experience) are the most mportant factors. Leupold Canada advises that 60% of scopes sent in for warranty have nothing wrong with them as the problems are usually in the mounting or the gun and shooter combination. Phil.
 
a little off the main topic but none the less..how does everyone feel about removeing the dovetail style rings and reusing them? when they are installed for the first time they shave a little steel off of the rings and the base. common sense would say that when they are reinstalled they will not be as tight and negatively affect accuracy?
 
The dovetail ring/base combo from any of the manufacturesrs with loosen up if taken on and off too many times. We find Leupolds easier to install if a drop of lubricant is placed on the dovetail as this limits the galling of the ring and base. Burris components seem a little tighter and require more effort to turn in. We use the Leupold plastic ring installation tool to turn the front ring in (don't use the scope unless you want to mark it up). Phil.
 
P of PDent said:
The dovetail ring/base combo from any of the manufacturesrs with loosen up if taken on and off too many times. We find Leupolds easier to install if a drop of lubricant is placed on the dovetail as this limits the galling of the ring and base. Burris components seem a little tighter and require more effort to turn in. We use the Leupold plastic ring installation tool to turn the front ring in (don't use the scope unless you want to mark it up). Phil.
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I agree.. the design was intended to be strong with lots of windage adjustment... I don't think it was intended to work as a quick detachable system does. I like to lube the front dovetail with high pressure Never-Seize grease. I too have seen a lots of cobbled up scope mounting... it never ends...
 
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