Last round bolt hold open??

Clobbersauras

Clobbersauras

CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Rating - 100%
96   0   0
Location
Waaay out west.
Not sure if this is the right thread but I've been thinking,,oh oh :eek:. Why bother with a last round bolt hold open design? Isn't it just a hold over from designs that use enblock clips and stripper clips? Does the design even matter in combat? Don't most people involved in a prolonged firefight just keep pulling the trigger until the weapon doesn't go bang anymore? They don't have the presence of mind to actually "feel" when the bolt holds open do they?
Many pistol combat schools recomend the shooter rack the slide during a reload instead of pushing the slide release lever...something about using the full energy of the spring to return the slide back to battery thus decreasing the chance of some sort of jam. Wouldn't this be the case for a combat rifle as well? Thus those in combat should be racking the bolt instead of using any type of lever to return the bolt to battery. If so would this mean the last shot bolt hold open device is kinda useless, any speed advantage obtained from the design would be at the expense of reliability.

Just thinking out loud....open to all ideas on this one.
 
Sometimes its easier to hit the bolt release than to charge the weapon... That said, its really what people prefer.

My friend hits the bolt release on his PE90, but i find it easier to pull the bolt handle back. I kind of wishmy Benelli M4s90 had the ability to close the bolt by pulling the charging handle, but its no big deal.
 
I find a bolt hold open device very useful . A few times in matches I have shot to slide lock & I much prefer that to just a click on an empty chamber.

My 1911 does not always release the slide by racking it back & releasing it. But it works 100% when I push down on the slide release. I prefer the slide release.

I find that it is what you feel comfortable with that works the best. ( IMO ).
 
The hold open device can save your life... It will prevent you from going into a long fight and ending up face to face with an enemy with an empty chamber. The loudest sound you can hear is "click" when it should have gone "Boom".

It is also a lot faster to operate the hold open device than re-#### the weapon again.

Mem
 
Regardless if you know the bolt is to the rear - if you get a dead trigger and do your Tap-Rack-Bang IA the bolt hold open will allow you immediate non diagnostic feedback - shortening your OODA loop.
With out the bolthold open you need to go into a remedial action - which is more involved.

There is a good thread on M4C about IA's.
 
KevinB said:
- if you get a dead trigger and do your Tap-Rack-Bang IA the bolt hold open will allow you immediate non diagnostic feedback - shortening your OODA loop.
With out the bolthold open you need to go into a remedial action - which is more involved.
Click to expand...

:confused:...Umm...What???...:confused:
 
Many European-based entities traditionally had the mindset that automatic HODs (hold open devices) caused more problems than they solved. They feel an open action lets in dirt, and offers no real advantages. This is why the British FN L1A1 had the activating tab ground off the HOD.

I think that is flat out wrong. Most guns strip a round just as reliably from the hold position as from full back, and while I've never been under the stress of combat, I have no problem picking up the different sound/feel of a single "KA-", after several ""KA-CHUNG"s.
 
Clobbersauras said:
Many pistol combat schools recomend the shooter rack the slide during a reload instead of pushing the slide release lever...something about using the full energy of the spring to return the slide back to battery .
Click to expand...

Using the two handed method of charging the pistol has more to do with relying on gross motor skills under stress rather than the mechanics of the pistol and it's ability to function/chamber rounds...
 
667 said:
Using the two handed method of charging the pistol has more to do with relying on gross motor skills under stress rather than the mechanics of the pistol and it's ability to function/chamber rounds...
Click to expand...

Absolutely correct. Failure to complete any movement that brings the firearm back into action is a bad movement. Why complicate the movements with separate actions for specific scenarios. Keep it simple and consistent.

TDC
 
Memnoch said:
When you are properly trained on a weapon, you will be able to "hear" that the bolt stayed to the rear. You know what is going on. A lot faster.

Mem
Click to expand...

Not only can you hear the difference in the last round but you can feel the difference in recoil and the lack of weight transfer from the BCG.

TDC
 
I heard that the slide lock back designs used in military pistols were intentional design requirements to facilitate operating the pistol with one hand (i.e. due to injury or the other arm holding something and otherwise unavailable etc...).

Not sure if this was the same with rifles.
 
Good feedback - In combat I still don't think that you would be able to feel the difference between a bolt locking back and it stripping off a round into battery (I agree you can feel it under a non-stress situation, at least I could with the various semi's I've owned, but a stress situation? No way), What Kevin B wrote makes sense to me, a last round hold open feature would provide instant feedback if the gun doesn't go bang, if the bolt is open you need a mag change, if it's closed you have other problems.....
 
TDC said:
Not only can you hear the difference in the last round but you can feel the difference in recoil and the lack of weight transfer from the BCG.

TDC
Click to expand...

Not going to happen in combat most of the time...


an IA is non diagnostic -- tap - rack - bang
TAP (tap or push/pull the mag)
RACK (run the cocking handle or slide)
BANG (re-acquire tgt and fire)

IF the IA fails - you get into RA's - remedial actions
A mag change is an RA - but based upon 1) if you notcied the action locked back or felt it locked back 2) you run the CH and it dead stops open.

With a non-bolt catch gun - your IA wont tell you about an empty mag -- since it will tap rack click - and your RA will not be as easy as well.
 
KevinB said:
Not going to happen in combat most of the time...


an IA is non diagnostic -- tap - rack - bang
TAP (tap or push/pull the mag)
RACK (run the cocking handle or slide)
BANG (re-acquire tgt and fire)

IF the IA fails - you get into RA's - remedial actions
A mag change is an RA - but based upon 1) if you notcied the action locked back or felt it locked back 2) you run the CH and it dead stops open.

With a non-bolt catch gun - your IA wont tell you about an empty mag -- since it will tap rack click - and your RA will not be as easy as well.
Click to expand...

I fully agree with you Kevin. I failed to add that one should not rely on the change in balance or report as an indicator of your firearms' status.

TDC
 
Roger.

Klunk -- tac reloads are a MUST -- I agree -- but there will me mainly times when you really do run dry on that mag w/o a chance to do a top up.
 
667 said:
Using the two handed method of charging the pistol has more to do with relying on gross motor skills under stress rather than the mechanics of the pistol and it's ability to function/chamber rounds...
Click to expand...

Hitting the slide release/bolt catch is in the same fine motor skill set as hitting the magazine release on a handgun/rifle. it is all a matter of how you train,that is what you will revert to.
That being said Tap rack bang, should always be the default setting when your firearm doesn't go bang when it should, after that remedial actions take over. You will always fight the way you train, if you use the slide lock/bolt catch during training you will do it under stress.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom