Lathe recommendations

jtoews80

jtoews80

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Location
Bonnyville, Alberta
I have been getting the odd custom built over the past few years and as life passes and family grows my shooting and building budget shrinks. So, what if I build my own??

I realize that anything I build myself will not shoot as well as the work done by any experianced gunsmith, however, I will be able to take satisfaction in having done it myself. Much the same as casting your own bullets and handloading.
I am self employed, so if I take my time and save up a little I can write off whatever I end up buying because my equipment needs the odd jackshaft built or rebuilt, which requires a lathe. My commecial requirements are a little bigger than anything used for gunsmithing and I am not sure what can build my driveline will be accurate enough for much else.

Basically, I need to be able to build a 2" diameter driveshaft, fitted with 1310 yokes or a shear assembly depending on what part of the line it comes out of. Max OAL on that driveline is 60", that piece has a spline on one end, so I can run that on a tailstock. This leaves us needing a little bigger than 2" bore and 36-60" center, so would something like that be accurate enough to chamber on too, or is that a lost cause.

I have seen the Grizzly imported equipment and they look ok, but I've worked with american made oilfield equipemnt and chinese knockoffs too. THe differences in metalurgy were noteable at times.

Would I be better off to hunt around for a domestically made southbend of some sort, a SHeldon 15 or Pratt & Whitney, even if I end up with a really large piece of equipment as long as it can be fine tuned to within tolerence??

Bear in mind, I haven't worked with a lathe much to speak of, with the exception of my tiny handloading tools and the odd driveline that runs my tanker trucks pump driveline.

JT.
 
jtoews80 said:
I have been getting the odd custom built over the past few years and as life passes and family grows my shooting and building budget shrinks. So, what if I build my own??

I realize that anything I build myself will not shoot as well as the work done by any experianced gunsmith, however, I will be able to take satisfaction in having done it myself. Much the same as casting your own bullets and handloading.
I am self employed, so if I take my time and save up a little I can write off whatever I end up buying because my equipment needs the odd jackshaft built or rebuilt, which requires a lathe. My commecial requirements are a little bigger than anything used for gunsmithing and I am not sure what can build my driveline will be accurate enough for much else.

Basically, I need to be able to build a 2" diameter driveshaft, fitted with 1310 yokes or a shear assembly depending on what part of the line it comes out of. Max OAL on that driveline is 60", that piece has a spline on one end, so I can run that on a tailstock. This leaves us needing a little bigger than 2" bore and 36-60" center, so would something like that be accurate enough to chamber on too, or is that a lost cause.

I have seen the Grizzly imported equipment and they look ok, but I've worked with american made oilfield equipemnt and chinese knockoffs too. THe differences in metalurgy were noteable at times.

Would I be better off to hunt around for a domestically made southbend of some sort, a SHeldon 15 or Pratt & Whitney, even if I end up with a really large piece of equipment as long as it can be fine tuned to within tolerence??

Bear in mind, I haven't worked with a lathe much to speak of, with the exception of my tiny handloading tools and the odd driveline that runs my tanker trucks pump driveline.

JT.
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I run a kent at work an the thing is a monster I t will cut huge amounts of anything that will fit in the 6 inch chuck the throat is 3 inches in diameter. it will also cut dead accurate time after time. don't buy to light a machine because it will flex too much. really important is an adjustable height toolpost because you will get sick of shimming tools. If you are not going to run carbide (you really want to run carbide) you absolutely need a coolant system. for gun stuff try and get a taper attachment (for barrels). lastly you need micrometers, the STM stuff is fine I do high precision stuff every day with them. and a dial indicator for ensuring that parts are running concentric. And I hesitate to say this but for the love of pete wear your safety glasses. happy turning.
 
Large heavy lathes if in good shape will machine with more accuracy than a light lathe as a rule. The only problem with many larger lathes is the headstock is too long to thread and chamber the barrel through the headstock, but good work can be done between centers. I have not used but have heard good things about the Grizzly machines and they ship to Canada. If buying used ,careful inspection of the machine and research into availability of parts is important. I have a 65 year old South Bend that is small but works for me, and you can get parts for most of these machines if you look.
 
As hunter5425 said the larger lathes have a longer head stock my Colchester would work with a 30" blank but not a 24", you just use a different holding method. Lots of controversy of which method is best anyway. One reason i got the larger lathe was because of the headstck hole. Once you have a machine you`ll discover there are a lot of different ways to skin the same cat.
 
grizzly lathes

I purchased a 14 x 40 grizzly gunsmith lathe. I to am not a machinist but have ran a lathe before. I have cut tenon and receiver threads for practice on peices of seemless 4140 and found this machine to be accurite. The same basic machine without the gunsmith features was $6500.00 at modern tool I bought this machine for 4500.00 us and they shipped it here for 350.00. This machine will not handle what you want, but my point is do not be worried about the quality of these machines as far as accuracy. That being said they are not as robust as a european or north american lathe.
 
I don't think you need a 2" bore to the headstock, you only need a lathe capable of handling 2" stock. By that I mean having the power and rigidity and of course the length to handle the material. I suspect that a lathe with a 1" bore is probably strong enough to turn the material between centers.
I often read in these threads, that you need a 1" bore or more in order to thread barrels; not true. I am quite happy with my Myford super 7 with a 5/8" bore to the head stock and have barreled a number of guns with it

cheers mooncoon
 
You're right mooncoon, as long as the shaft stock can be turned to withing 10 thou runout that'll make a real nice driveshaft for a pump. It only runs at 750-800rpm. The last one I had built was made by an older guy who liked things perfect, he had that one within 3 thou, it runs great. No vibrations or anything.

JT
 
There's a nicely tooled Colchester Triumph for sale on Kijiji near Calgary. Cant tell if its 60" inches though. Better off buying a machine built on the other side of the Atlantic than the other side of the Pacific.
 
jtoews80 said:
You're right mooncoon, as long as the shaft stock can be turned to withing 10 thou runout that'll make a real nice driveshaft for a pump. It only runs at 750-800rpm. The last one I had built was made by an older guy who liked things perfect, he had that one within 3 thou, it runs great. No vibrations or anything.

JT
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10 thou of runout would be considered as very rough work on any decent lathe. Even the .003 figure could be easily bettered if you take the time and have some skill and understanding of the issues. So it's not the machine which will limit you, it's you.

A 2+ inch headstock bore is huge. And given your stated requirement to hold longer shafts for turning the ends it seems like you will require one of the larger 14 or 16 inch swing lathes with a 40 or 60 C-C distance. Looking at the Grizzly website those are where the 2.065 headstock bore sizes are found. THey are also all up around $18K and require 220volts to run. If that's not scaring you away then add on the likely $3000 for various tooling to go with the machine in terms of cutter, reamers and other things that you'll buy over time.

A lathe can only do the "round things". Then you need a milling machine to do the "flat and straight things". This is obvoiusly highly simplistic a description but it fits when you stop to think about it. A lathe with no milling machine or a mill with no lathe is sort of like a guy with only one arm hanging wall paper.
 
If you can find a good used Colchester at a sale, go for it. I passed on one a few years ago and have kicked myself ever since. Failing that, Grizzly make a decent lathe at a good price and they have the enthusiasm and support to back it up for gunsmiths.
 
Take a look at Modern Tool, they carry new and used.
14" x 40" lathes are very popular in gunsmith circles, but bigger and smaller are also used.
DanO
 
Thx for the input, I realize That my commercial requirements are not very strenuous too. The opportunity to learn on driveshaft tubing sold by the foot versus a $3-400 barrel blank is worth alot too. I spent over $2000 last year on that driveline last year and it seems to need rebuilding at least annually. If I can do it without having to wait for a machineshop to have time or fix stuff that isn't broken to preempt down time. Spending 3-5000 wouldn't be impractical, to be able to fix yourself. Plus, new skills and doing it yourself can be rewarding.

I have only had rebarreling done, where does the legal and liability angle change?
If I only use existing actions and never sell anything I've chambered, built or worked without a prior inspection from a qualified smith I should be good??

I realize that customs never sell for much, but they do get sold occasionally.

JT
 
I'm a millwright by trade and one of the tightest lathes I ever ran was an old czech unit. Guy I was working for had me rebuild it (new bearings, gears, adjusted the shift linkages). It was all tooled up, heavy, accurate and could handle almost whatever cut you wanted to try. Come to think of it, I wonder if he'd sell it to me...? Quick! To the money master!
 
JUST GO FOR IT!!

I have an El-cheap-O Chinese 12x36 lathe from Busy Bee Tools. Not exactly what you are looking for but DAM IT I am happy with mine (from a gunsmithing point of view)

To hell with business (I bought mine for work as well) It is worth it just for tinkering with guns. I guess there comes a point when a Gun Nut needs to progress to the next level and for me a lathe was it.


I wanted to see how accurate of a gun I could build so I tried.

Here are the results.
100_0848.jpg


Custom action Shilen BBl and with only scope I had sitting around.....


100_0852.jpg


My first groups with the rifle. That one on the right has 5 shots in it at 107 yards.




WORTH IT??


YES!!
 
RoA, you're now the official Poster Child for home made rifles. That's mighty fine looking results! ! ! !

The 12x36 is what I've got as well. It'll be more than enough for any gun work I do. But it doesn't have a headstock big enough or a bed long enough to do the drive shaft work that JT wants to do to "justify" the purchase of such a machine.

To JT, keep in mind the difference between our 12x36 and the 14 or 16 x 40 to 60 that you need to rebuild your shafts is like triple the price or more.

Could you post a picture or two of what you'd be working on and a description of what work is needed? It's possible that a way could be contrived to allow a smaller machine to worth with the steady rest and with the tail stock removed to work on the long shaft with a short bed machine. But it's all dependent on what sort of work needs to be done and where on the shaft it's located.
 
I went for a larger machine as i do a bit of machinery repair in my spare time, picked up a 15x48 cholchester also have a 13x36 import. The imports are not all created equal by any means, there is a large difference in quality. If you are buying it really helps to have somebody in the trade check it over.
 
My lathe is a 12x36 and I can swing 5 1/2" over the saddle if I have to I have made a few shafts that were over 10' long,using my steady rest and another homemade steady rest bolted to the workbench next to the lathe.

Maybe you don't need as big a lathe as you think.
But if you do get a large lathe chambering on a steady rest has been done by many top gunsmiths for years .
 
My lathe is a 50 year old Clausing 4912 10 inch swing and 36 inches between centres. Had to rebuild the headstock and part of the quick-change box, but it is MUCH smoother than the oriental products. Only hassle has been the 1 3/4 by 8 nose thread. Wish I had waited to find a 5900 series.

Dr Jim
 
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