Laupold Mark 4 or Nightforce

I'm a hardcore Leupold fan, and for my needs, the MK 4 glass was sufficient. However, with recent changes in warranty policies with respect to Canadian customers (establishing a monopoly for Korth and refusal to honour the Leupold warranty on any new scopes not purchased through them or their distributor network in Canada) I've bought my last Leupold.

My next new tactical scope will be a Nightforce. Comparable warranty to Leupold, without the strong-arm tactics and thinly veiled threats, superior glass and more choices for very close to the same price point for the high-end Leupolds in Canada.
 
If you buy a Nightforce from other than an "Authorized dealer", expect strongarm tactics that would make Korth blush. Maybe imitation really is the most sincere form of flattery?

Nightforce guards its turf like a sow grizzly.
 
If you buy a Nightforce from other than an "Authorized dealer", expect strongarm tactics that would make Korth blush. Maybe imitation really is the most sincere form of flattery?

Nightforce guards its turf like a sow grizzly.

I believe the NF stance is more to try and protect themselves and purchasers from illegally exported product getting either party into trouble with the US government.
NF scopes ARE ITAR controlled and as such NF "can" be held to the coals if they can not account for product that was not exported legally.
The easiest way to "encourage" foreign (Canadian) customers to not get either party in trouble is to make it known that any warranty claims made on scopes that were not legally exported can be problematic which is the exact same stance Leupold has on their MK4 line and for the exact same reasons.

The warranty stance taken by Korth on recent Leupold product is a whole different issue.
 
Korth

I don't really care about Korth's new warranty policy, it is illegal unless you get paperwork. What does bother me with Korth is their insane mark up on scopes, which I think should be illegal. Our dollar is worth more than the U.S. dollar, yet we pay significantly more for the same scope here. Maybe if Korth brought their prices more in line to what they should be, guys wouldn't need to buy scopes from the U.S. Hope someone from Korth is reading this. Maybe we should collectively phone Korth, tell them were members here, and what we think of their prices and policy.:eek::eek:
 
In the end it's the same thing, buy it through the "approved" network or kiss the warranty goodbye. The buyer is in the same spot with a grey market scope whether the policy is motivated by profit or altruism, so useing that as a selection criteria between the two isn't valid.

That's OK, there's plenty of valid points to decide on.
 
I've legally imported Leupold scopes from the US a number of times with the aid of a knowledgeable US retailer. Savings realized were up to 40-50% of current Canadian retail prices. When you are talking about scopes in the $1800-$2100 range, the savings are significant.

In all cases US State Dept. and Canadian DFAIT rules & regulations were observed and the required paperwork submitted. This was before the new Korth only rule was imposed. If I did the same today, Korth would not honour Leupold's "Lifetime" warranty regardless of the fact that the scope was legally imported and I had the paperwork to support it.

In terms of Nightforce 'strong-arm' tactics when it comes to their warranty...it is a non-issue, just as long as you observed the proper rules and regulations and your scope is a legal 'black' market scope, rathe than 'gray.'

When it comes to ITAR restrictions and the issue of illegal exports, any firearms related company would be insane to risk the massive fines, potential jail-time for company officers and the disruption in their business and/or loss of government contracts, etc... for the sake of a handful of civilian sales. They aren't alone. Just look at companies like EoTech or Trijicon. They also require that their latest/restricted list optics have all the paperwork in order before accepting them for repair work on warranty. Unless you have money to burn, it just isn't worth it to buy such gray market optics and then be left holding the bag because it breaks and you can't get it fixed legally.

A lot of the current restrictions are stupid, idiotic and unnecessary, however, they don't have to make sense. They are government regs and we have to follow them.

Getting back to the Leupold/Korth situation; totally not the same issue. Here we have a case of Leupold working with their Canadian distributor to change a near monopoly (and inflated prices/profit) to a true monopoly, with Canadian hunters and shooters the losers.

I wil not support that kind of predatory business policy. Same reason I wil not fly Air Canada, despite being hardcore Leupold fan for 20+ years.
 
Oh no, ive gone cross eyed!!!

azazle,

this all just for fun, but i'll take a crack at explaining it. You already know that halving the magnification doubles the spaceing between the hash marks, right? So here's the thing, i want a mildot spacing to grow into a moa spaceing. One mil is 3.6 inches at 100 yards, but i want it to measure 1.047" x 4 = 4.18" (4 moa) the ratio between what i've got and what i want is 3.6/4.18 = .859 since the relationship between the magnification and subtension is inverse; 25 x .859 = 21.49 set the power ring of a 25 x mark 4 to 21.49 power and the spaceing is now 4 moa. 'course, for my uses a 4 moa spaceing isn't widely useful, but a 1/2 mil spaceing like a tmr gives a 2 moa spacing that is some good to me. Dial elevation and hold wind in a pinch.
 
In Nightforce's case... Their scopes are made in the orient, and I believe it started as an Austalrian company (maybe still is). These scopes could easily be imported from Asia direct to a Canadian distributor without touching the USA. They have made a marketing decision to guarantee the entire North American market to a US distributor with all the cross border expense and US ITAR/DOS b.s. that entails. Canadian consumer be dammed.

Sorry but you are wrong.

Actually the lens's and most of the tubes used by Nightforce are made in Japan, then shipped to Idaho for assembly and installation of some critical parts that are made in the USA by Nightforce Optics Inc. Some of their scopes are made entirely in the U.S. along with their rings and rails.

Originally Nightforce was marketed by Lightforce Optics from Australia, the ins and outs of the business relationship I do not know, but ALL Nightforce scopes world wide now originate from Idaho. The NF benchrest series is very close to what the original Lightforce scopes were like, the NXS series is more recent and has no foundation with the Aussie beginnings.
 
I am thinking to get into long range shooting at range and can't decide which way to go between mark 4 or nightforce.


Any advice with the people who have used both of them will be of great help.

back on topic.


Really man it depends on how you want to use your scope. If you like to spin turrets and only shoot from the bench the NF is a great scope.

If you want to actually use your mil dots a fixed 10x is the way to go. This makes Leupold king. just make sure to get the tactical mil dot reticule. The .5 hesh marks are key.

NF has the NSX 2.5x10x32 that you can get with the NP-R2 reticule, This is nice. But when your a mil dot guy, even tho its a NF ...... nothing holds confidence like a fixed zoom.


if you do want zoom a FFP is sweet but usually very expensive.
 
Sorry but you are wrong.

Actually the lens's and most of the tubes used by Nightforce are made in Japan, then shipped to Idaho for assembly and installation of some critical parts that are made in the USA by Nightforce Optics Inc. Some of their scopes are made entirely in the U.S. along with their rings and rails.

Originally Nightforce was marketed by Lightforce Optics from Australia, the ins and outs of the business relationship I do not know, but ALL Nightforce scopes world wide now originate from Idaho. The NF benchrest series is very close to what the original Lightforce scopes were like, the NXS series is more recent and has no foundation with the Aussie beginnings.

I stand corrected

NormB
 
Sorry but you are wrong.

Actually the lens's and most of the tubes used by Nightforce are made in Japan, then shipped to Idaho for assembly and installation of some critical parts that are made in the USA by Nightforce Optics Inc. Some of their scopes are made entirely in the U.S. along with their rings and rails.

Originally Nightforce was marketed by Lightforce Optics from Australia, the ins and outs of the business relationship I do not know, but ALL Nightforce scopes world wide now originate from Idaho. The NF benchrest series is very close to what the original Lightforce scopes were like, the NXS series is more recent and has no foundation with the Aussie beginnings.

The first batch marketed by Lightforce were made by HAKKO of Japan. Then LF/NF morphed corporately and also from a supply base. pretty much had to as HAKKO deep sixed a few years back (but apparently has been resurrected recently)

If they are 'made in America', why do so many have stamped on their tubes 'made in Japan'?

I don't begrude any manf from sourcing where they get the best value and Asia is it for this kind of stuff. As far as lenses go, they might be the only game left.

But so many products are being monopolised IN CANADA by the supply chain and that is causing headaches from many many people.

Conflicts of interest are rampant...

So far, most of the Japanese brands have pretty easy going lifetime warranties. Some US brands too.

Except Nikon but that is another story.

Jerry
 
I tried to go back on topic ( my brownie points ) but i gota hijack this quickly.....


Why did they restrict scope sales to Canada ?

I can see some guns being a headake to buy from the US but why scopes ?

ur right. It really is a pain in the @ss.
 
The first batch marketed by Lightforce were made by HAKKO of Japan. Then LF/NF morphed corporately and also from a supply base. pretty much had to as HAKKO deep sixed a few years back (but apparently has been resurrected recently)

If they are 'made in America', why do so many have stamped on their tubes 'made in Japan'?

I don't begrude any manf from sourcing where they get the best value and Asia is it for this kind of stuff. As far as lenses go, they might be the only game left.

But so many products are being monopolised IN CANADA by the supply chain and that is causing headaches from many many people.

Conflicts of interest are rampant...

So far, most of the Japanese brands have pretty easy going lifetime warranties. Some US brands too.

Except Nikon but that is another story.

Jerry

The 1x4s. 2.5x10x32s and the FFPs are all US made with the exception of the lens's which are made in Japan along with most of the higher end non European made optical glass.

As I mentioned the tubes, lens's etc for all the others are made in Japan and are marked as such, the US made scopes are marked made in USA.

Warranty is NOT a problem as long as the optic has a serial number that shows up on an export permit. Because many NF scopes are used by the US military they have become an ITAR controlled item, just the same as some Leupold, Trijicon and Eotech product are, hence the Dept of State controls their exports, just like they do with ITAR controlled guns and parts.

I do not understand how having a number of "authorized dealers" scattered across the country " is causing headaches from many many people."

Try buying Lulu Lemon anywhere but at 1 of their stores, or Purdys candies. Even some of the automobile dealers seem to be brand specific. I was forced to deal with a BMW dealer in order to purchase my BMW, which is across town. There is a Dodge dealer 4 blocks away that is FAR more convenient to get to, but I wanted a BMW so was forced to buy it from an authorized BMW dealer. :eek:
 
Regarding fixed v variable, all the best sniper units I've seen use variable. If set on fixed, Sightron has the latest and arguably the best fixed 10, 16 and 20X units for tacical and 36X models for BR.

Ror FClass, NF rules the mound and Sightron will continue to make the largest gains.

Regards,

Peter
 
I do not understand how having a number of "authorized dealers" scattered across the country " is causing headaches from many many people."

Might be, say, that some people think that the situation has been exploited to fix prices.:p

Tell ya what. I'll pay full price plus a little extra to have you write some smokin' price that I pick on the bill. We even give the taxman his pound of flesh. I'll take that bill to some of those scattered authorized dealers and ask if they are interested in several quick sales by matching ATR's price. How long do you think it'll take for your phone to ring right off the wall?

If I'm wrong, you get a premium price and a good laugh, while I still have a good scope. If I'm right, I won't be the one with the headache. Deal?;)
 
I do not understand how having a number of "authorized dealers" scattered across the country " is causing headaches from many many people."

My point was not about having dealers, it was about the supply chain.

With your analogy, you set up a nice bmw dealer as the corporation dictates. You follow their rules and take the appropriate inventory investments.

You set up a dealership per the rules. BMW importer sets the prices you need to sell at and what your costs are. Things are tightened arbitrarily cause the importer says it should be this way and can change the landscape without prior notice or discusion.

Now you start to hear that your customers are buying BMW's directly from the importer at reduced pricing. The importer is advertising this service and undercuts the prices you, as a dealer, need to sell at.

Your supplier becomes your biggest competitor.

Now you also find out that dealers in another region pay substantially LESS then your costs. But because of your importer, you have no access to these products.

So your customers now have a choice to buy from your supplier or from other dealers in another pricing environment.

How would you feel????

Jerry
 
My point was not about having dealers, it was about the supply chain.

With your analogy, you set up a nice bmw dealer as the corporation dictates. You follow their rules and take the appropriate inventory investments.

You set up a dealership per the rules. BMW importer sets the prices you need to sell at and what your costs are. Things are tightened arbitrarily cause the importer says it should be this way and can change the landscape without prior notice or discusion.

Now you start to hear that your customers are buying BMW's directly from the importer at reduced pricing. The importer is advertising this service and undercuts the prices you, as a dealer, need to sell at.

Your supplier becomes your biggest competitor.

Now you also find out that dealers in another region pay substantially LESS then your costs. But because of your importer, you have no access to these products.

So your customers now have a choice to buy from your supplier or from other dealers in another pricing environment.

How would you feel????

Jerry

Jerry
You have me completely confused as to how this has anything to do with how the NF dealer network works.

EVERY NF Authorized dealer in Canada buys their product DIRECT from Nightforce, who publish a pricelist that applies the same to everyone who is an Authorized dealer.
There is NO importer of NF that works like Korth does, so there is no way for a customer to buy from any other legitimate source.

ATRS is the sole Canadian "distributor" for NF, yet the cost I pay for NF product is EXACTLY the same as what the other authorized dealers pay for their product. The only thing that being a distributor does is allows us to sell to other non authorized dealers, like yourself, without being in breach of the agreement that authorized NF dealers sign as part of becoming an authorized dealer.
The idea behind NFs plan is to have the country covered with a dealer network that works together for the good of all, currently most of us do.
Unfortunately there is a rogue dealer, but they are being dealt with.


To have several hundred dealers that carry a specialty item makes no sense. They protect their dealers unlike many companies. When some of the chain stores wanted to carry the line, NF listened to the Canadian dealer networks concerns and opted to not to sell to the chains. More manufacturers should take heed or the chain stores will be the ONLY option for firearms.
To me having a factory educated person who actually knows something about the specific shooting sports and knows the product line intimately would be my choice for purchasing an expensive optic from as opposed to take a ticket , wait for the clerk who knows ZIP about nearly anything, to take my money for a box containing something said clerk has likley never even used

Like with many comodities we have a minimum advertised price (MAP) that the dealers are supposed to stick to. This will vary with the dollars value as it is based on US pricing, but believe me the margin is low. Most economists will tell you that minimum mark up required to keep the doors open is 35%, there is just over 1/2 of that in NF scopes.

Hopefully we can get back on track with what the thread was about now.
 
I am thinking to get into long range shooting at range and can't decide which way to go between mark 4 or nightforce.


Any advice with the people who have used both of them will be of great help.

I have not used the Leupold mk4 so I will not comment on them, but I do have two Nightforce scopes.

The glass is very good and they are proving to be very well made scopes as they have held up well under some pretty harsh hunting conditions.

If your application is the range then the extra weight of the Nightforce is moot point as you only packing it to and from your vehicle.

Where mine really shine is when I am distance shooting, the moa adjustments are very precise and repeatable. I have never had another scope that is this predictable in this respect.

Others will have different experiences but I prefer the MOA hashmarks as the math, for me, is easier. Before you pick milldot or MOA increments on your scope I would recommend doing some reading on the subject.
 
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