Lead ammo, toxicity and closet socialists

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:rolleyes: Now this post will either get me flamed or banned, maybe both but it must be said anyway.:rockOn:

Thanks to a few closet socialist shooters who have been constantly lobbying the indoor range owners/operators, cast lead bullets are no longer an option for many reloaders. The argument is being made that when using cast lead bullets, every time a shot is fired, lead particles are ejected into the air which can be inhaled. The fact that this lead quickly settles down (being much heavier than air) doesn't seem to interfere with the argument which assumes that these particles will remain airborne forever :rolleyes:

Although, much research exists that makes this particulate lead virtually benign compared to the gaseous lead salts generated by primer ignition, ignorance knows no bounds it seems as many of the same closet socialists are not even aware of this simple fact. If that's not strange enough, I've observed a few of them on many occasion eating snacks, sandwiches, drinking water/pop from open bottles without as much as a hand-wash after several courses of fire. Many of these individuals don't notice that the ventilation system is not always turned on before they proceed to fire 100 rounds downrange in quite a haste. So much for using the simplest of preventative measures, such as a hand/face wash, etc...:rolleyes:

Such behavior seems strange considering the clear signs of "lead phobia" that these individuals exhibit, which should prompt said persons to actually get their facts straight. You'd think that such people would bother to actually do the simple things that make a difference on a personal level but no ... instead they don't miss an opportunity to become hysterical if someone actually sweeps the floor while they are around. I am also seeing a disturbing trend developing where these shooters are developing a phobia for gun-powder smoke and promptly lament and comment when another shooter happens to use a powder that is not the cleanest burning, and usually the most expensive. Now, some of them are starting to wear HASMAT masks :runaway:, complaining that their doctor is concerned that their blood lead levels are too high.:eek:

It is understandable that one is concerned about health related issues, however before ruining the shooting sports for all of us a few points would be worth remembering:

1. When you took up shooting, you should have known that there will be some limited exposure to a variety of chemicals with potentially unpleasant effects. You should have known that repeated and frequent exposure may lead to accumulation in the body. Even if you didn't bother to find out at the time, you don't have the right to ruin shooting for everyone else by "banning" this that and the other thing at the range. You are no better than an anti in fact you are even worse as you are weakening us from within.

2. While you could protect yourself extremely well, it would definitely take the fun out of shooting and then you have to ask, why bother with it anyway. There is always gun-collecting if you don't want to shoot.

3. While lead exposure due to cast bullets may be a concern, the simple cleaning/handling of guns will expose you to cleaning solvents, and other heavy metals, including barium, antimony, copper and arsenic, which are just as damaging in the long run. Will you not clean your gun ever just to avoid exposure? Will you clean your gun outside all the time with nitrile gloves and HASMAT mask on, yes latex is pretty useless but you knew that right?

4. Handling fired cases exposes you to lead salts which form when the primers ignite. So even if you shoot outdoors, if you reload, you will be exposed to highly reactive forms of lead unless you wear a space suit. And if you reload in your house, guess where these lead salts linger for weeks? Maybe moving your guns and shooting stuff/activities out of your house is in order :runaway: as these reactive lead salts are far more dangerous than the particulate lead you inhale :eek:

5. Perhaps most important if you have elevated blood lead levels, stop shooting at indoor ranges that are not properly ventilated. Perhaps stop shooting for a while and stop eating fish, meat and any other animal product as toxins have a nasty tendency to accumulate higher up in the food chain. Just for fun, check out what farmed salmon contains then see if you still think that lead poisoning should continue to be your major concern in life...

6. If you decide that you must go to the range every now and then but wear a mask, remember that a fine dust mask will stop over 90% of the particulate lead that may exist in the air at the range, so there is no need to freak out about particulate lead resulting from lead cast bullets. Above all remember, that your fancy jacketed bullets also generate particulate lead when they hit the back-stop so stop thinking that they solve your problems. If you feel the need to protect yourself against the gaseous lead salts too, make sure you get a two-stage respirator mask rated for metallic particles and vapors or save your money for your doctor.

7. Take the simple and effective precautions associated with cleaning yourself after you've been to the range. If you don't know which these measures are, find out! Some key ones are: Don't ever eat at the range as ingested lead is absorbed 100%! Don't touch your face/mouth area while at the range, wash your hands and face frequently and take a shower after you go home from the range. Leave the clothes you've been to the range in outside your house as they technically contain any and all the chemicals and crap you've been exposed to a the range.

8. Remember that living life is hazardous in itself and it will eventually kill you, so relax and enjoy it while it lasts! The most fun things in life are insanely dangerous, and they are fun just because of that. If you don't know what I am talking about go scuba diving with sharks swimming at 60 feet from you, you'll know what I mean. Don't be a closet socialist and try to protect everybody, including yourself, from every possible hazard in the name of some "greater good". Live life for what it is or stay home and let others enjoy life the way they choose to. Remember that other people have the right to smoke, eat meat and generally do unhealthy things without the need or desire to be "saved".;)
 
Most indoor ranges have an air handling system that flows air from the shooters position forward towards the targets. This takes care of both smoke and airborne lead particles.

There is definitely a lead phobia. Lead like so many other things has become "evil" because of years of the media repeating that it is evil. Growing children should not be exposed to lead, but it has a less toxic effect on adults.

One of my grandfathers used to do auto bodywork using solder. He had so much lead in his body that it showed up on xrays!!! You could see lines of lead accumulation in his major joints. He lived to be 86 and died of a heart attack.

Lead phobia is similar to DDT phobia. DDT is actually a very safe insecticide around people, rated moderately to slightly toxic to us. DDT does soften the eggshells of some birds and that is why it was banned. But because of the media it has become "evil" and feared.

I live my life and take my own (informed) chances... There are so many things out there that can kill us that even if you become a hermit you will still die. Take reasonable care, enjoy your life and tell "closet socialists" that if they don't want to come in contact with lead, then stay away from the range.

Lead Factbook - http://www.ldaint.org/factbook/
 
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people who shoot cast lead bullets most definitely put a nice cloud of vaporized lead into the air. even on outdoor ranges you can taste it when RO'ing them.
for indoor ranges, if there are people who are considered "employees" on the range, then your range must meet Health and Safety standards as set by your province, or even by the Feds, depending on who uses your range, beyond membership. if it's just members, then the majority rule. Cast lead bullets DO put more lead into the air then rounds with lead styphenate primers do. Bullets with lead exposed bases also put more lead into the air. Jacketed Hollow Point or Total Metal Jacket bullets put less, and Lead Free Primers rounds, with (obviously) lead free bullets, put basically none. JHP count as lead free as there is no lead exposed to burning powder or primer ignition. and very little to zero, lead particulate is created when they strike whatever you have for a backstop.
 
Lead content in my blood level shot up dramaticallu once I stated shooting a couple of years ago.
But it was mostly due to the fact that I kept a media tumbler on cleaning the brass while I reloaded nearby. I did some digging around and found about this and since then all tumbling/cleaning is done outside the house.
Also most of the lead that we end up injesting is from the primers and not from the lead bullets itself. Primers are the worst culprits. Also handling shot/used brass at range or home is another part of it.
Just my 2 cents
 
I always wear gloves when cleaning, I wash my brass instead of tumbling (Interesting Lee is his book mentioned that the tumbler was the biggest source of lead) and I do all of my reloading in the garage. I shoot lead outside and FMJ inside.
 
Slavex said:
people who shoot cast lead bullets most definitely put a nice cloud of vaporized lead into the air. even on outdoor ranges you can taste it when RO'ing them.
for indoor ranges, if there are people who are considered "employees" on the range, then your range must meet Health and Safety standards as set by your province, or even by the Feds, depending on who uses your range, beyond membership. if it's just members, then the majority rule. Cast lead bullets DO put more lead into the air then rounds with lead styphenate primers do. Bullets with lead exposed bases also put more lead into the air. Jacketed Hollow Point or Total Metal Jacket bullets put less, and Lead Free Primers rounds, with (obviously) lead free bullets, put basically none. JHP count as lead free as there is no lead exposed to burning powder or primer ignition. and very little to zero, lead particulate is created when they strike whatever you have for a backstop.
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The issue is not whether there is more particulat lead or not. Naturally there will be more particulate lead but that is not what people should be worried about, instead the focus should be on the lead salts, in particulate or gaseous form. The lead salts are highly reactive and ravage your body incredibly, it's just basic chemistry, whereas particulate lead will eventually leave your body without doing much as it is inert and chemically quite stable, again basic chemistry.

I can't resist to say this but consider that people who eat certain foods also fart and contribute to global warming, should we now ban beans too? ;)
 
Myself, I shot in a unventilated indoor range for a couple of years. Granted, I only shot there once or twice a week for two or three hours at a time. You could taste the lead in the air, and everything you touched had a lead film on it. I was tested for lead and found out that I had no elevated levels. And everything and anything was shot there. So I must agree with previous replys. Use proper hygiene when at and leaving the range and stop worrying. It is better to have a lot of fun for a short time than no fun for a long time. My 2 cents.

And as for sweeping the floor. It really should be swept and mopped regularly. When sweeping, use something like dustbane (sp) to keep the dust down.
 
yes we should ban beans! you've never been around 757Fixer after his toxic chilli have you?
 
Colin said:
I always wear gloves when cleaning, I wash my brass instead of tumbling (Interesting Lee is his book mentioned that the tumbler was the biggest source of lead) and I do all of my reloading in the garage. I shoot lead outside and FMJ inside.
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I use Frontier plated bullets and pre-wash my brass in a vinegar and water solution that came from an old NRA publication for cleaning brass. I do this to clean off any mud, grit and powder reside as well as lead residue. then I de-cap and tumble. Over my Lyman tumbler with the sifter lid I put a damp towel held on with an elastic band under the top's lid to catch as much dust as I can and rinse it out when I'm done. Paranoid? probably.

Haven't had my lead levels tested to see if this helps
 
The amount of lead ablated from a non plated bullet is marginal compared to what is generated by the primer. The smoke and particulate matter is largely made up of lube and powder residue. As was previously stated it is the lead salts that pose the greatest hazard because they are readily absorbable. What little lead particulate that is generated is far less hazardous. The real problem is the antis are using the environmental argument against us and it is a lie. Remember lead shot? a fatally scientifically flawed study but politically implemented. Don't let the same thing happen to us.

Brian
 
The worst exposure is the tumbler. It generates quite a bit of contaminated dust if you are not careful. Wearing gloves and/ or washing your hands after cleaning is good practive.

Brian
 
I've been reloading since 1986, since then I've had 3 bad bouts of elevated blood lead levels. In each case the Base Medical Officer restricted(read that disallowed) my shooting for a 6 month period while the blood lead level returned to normal. If you are going to wear a mask while shooting go to a certified safety supply store and purchase a mask that is rated as effective in stopping lead airborne contaminent. Most lead on indoor ranges is made airborne by your feet as you walk down the indoor range. While I was in the service, part of retaining my RSO qualification for indoor ranges was that I had to get a blood test every 6 months.

Elevated blood lead levels are nothing to f*ck around with they can cause serious damage to your body. Loss of co-ordination, loss of memory, mood swings, etc. It can really screw relationships up badly. Since I retired I only shoot outdoors which helps minimize airborne lead contaminent. A PMed tech I used to shoot with also let me in on a secret, during the reloading process on a single stage press, you can handle a single round 5-6 times. Your skin absorbs a lot of lead this way. When reloading I now wear latex surgical gloves and since they are cheap, use them in bulk. This way the only time my hands actually touch lead is when I load and fire the firearm. I have shot IPSC and Cowboy action and I am a high volume shooter!
 
lcq said:
The amount of lead ablated from a non plated bullet is marginal compared to what is generated by the primer. The smoke and particulate matter is largely made up of lube and powder residue. As was previously stated it is the lead salts that pose the greatest hazard because they are readily absorbable. What little lead particulate that is generated is far less hazardous. The real problem is the antis are using the environmental argument against us and it is a lie. Remember lead shot? a fatally scientifically flawed study but politically implemented. Don't let the same thing happen to us.

Brian
Click to expand...

Your basic chemistry lessons might be valid, but unfortunately when ranges are tested for airborne lead contamination the samplers pick up both lead particles and lead "salts" from the air. The total lead load over a period of time is measured. So regardless of your feelings on the subject, this is what is measured. WCB, theHealth Region, and the provincial range police are interested in their methods only.
 
If being somewhat concerned about my health (not hypochondriac paranoid) makes me a 'closet socialist' then count me in. Not that I have ever really worried about lead contamination, ate enough paint chips as a child to not care :)
 
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