LEAD FOULING - Hard Cast

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Pudelpointer

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Hi guys,

Looking for some help. I loaded some 240 hard cast over some 700x, velocity should be around 1000 fps, and I am getting some serious fouling. After 20 rounds I could not even see rifling in the first couple inches of barrel. Bullets were starting to tumble as well.

I am using the 700x because I still have about 6 pounds hanging around, but I don not load shotgun anymore.

So at what velocity does one need to use gas checks? FWIW, the firearm is a S&W 629.

Any info appreciated.
 
Do you know the BHN level of the cast bullet ? The other thing is a gas check.

Look at MD SMITH RELOADING. Some suggest over 900 fps GAS CHECK. Other say 1100 fps. I keep lead 44 mags to around 900 so far no problem in my ruger. Using Wolf and Bullet Barn cast bullets.
 
Although they might reduce fouling and improve accuracy in some cases, you shouldn't need to use gas checks at any handgun velocity to prevent the kind of leading you are describing

I suspect that the culprit in this case is gas cutting. What is the bullet diameter? How do they fit the chamber mouths? Ideally, the bullet should just slide through with moderate finger pressure. You may need .431" or .432" bullets for best results.

Is the bullet plain or bevel based? Beveled bases can sometimes aggravate gas cutting.

700X is a fairly fast-burning powder, which could be another aggravating factor. If you find that your bullets are sized right for the gun, you might want to consider switching to a slower burning powder or loading 700X to a lower velocity.

Another thing you may want to try if you can't get custom sized bullets are NECO P-Wads. These are PVC discs that fit between the bullet and powder to provide a better gas seal.
 
I suspect you are using some commercial cast bevel base bullets, whose diameter is too small for your pistol. The powder you are using should not be the cause of the problem.
You need to check bullet fit in your chamber (cylinder mouth), and then make sure that it is larger than your bore diameter. Then, you probably need to get some bullets that are properly sized for your revolver.
 
Hummm. I've driven cast 0.430" through my 44 mag with some pretty crazy hot loads and haven't had a problem. I use a flat base bullet without a gas check groove....just a plain flat base.

Have you used these bullets before with another powder without problem ???
Did you cast them yourself or are they factory made ???
If you cast them yourself, what did you use for lead ? Wheel weights/ linotype / some other scrap ???? We really need as much info as you can give us to give you a little bit more or an accurate answer.


I'm hoping Bruce will chime in here. He's done more with cast bullets over the years than any of us.
 
I'm using Bruce's recommended top load of H110, with hard cast 240's. I've never seen a molecule of lead in my barrel. I'd think the gas cutting, or undersized bullet for your gun would likely be the problem. Those commercial hard cast can work, and very well at that.
 
Leading and Tumbling? Sounds like the lead may be too soft for the velocity. Also, as mentioned, size does make a lot of difference with cast bullets. Measure the bullets and try to slu your barrel (although that is a real PITA with a round gun).

There was no load data given. 700x with a 240gr should be around 9.5gr to give around 1180-1200fps.


The other thing that contributes to leading is lube. What kind of lube is being used? Were they home cast? Or were they commercial cast?

I use both HOT loads (H110) and target loads (Titegroup) in my 44's and don't have any problems even with softer range lead. They are home cast flat base (ie no gas check), sized to .429 with Red Carnuba lube. They work fine, even in a Desert Eagle with no lead fouling.
 
The problems I have had with cast are too hard, not enough/too low temp of lube, or undersized.

Probably all three at the same time. I found bullets that were sized 2 thousands over with a better lube for my rifle to make it stop. Gas checks shouldn't be needed till you hit 1800 or more..

Just a thought. 1000fps should only have problems if the bullet is really hard and undersized. Shooting cast has been happening for a long time and it seems like now we have all this technology, we can't do it properly anymore. We are thinking too hard.
 
More info:

The bullets are .429 240gr, SWC "hard cast" from Cactus Plains, and IIRC they have a beveled base. I had a friend load some for me with a mild charge of titegroup or lil'gun or something, and they were not bad for leading, but I have a pile of 700x and hoped it would work. I suspect my issue is they are not creating a tight seal in the bore, which is why I thought a gas check may help, but I do not think these bullets have a crimp ring for them.

Oh, and the load was 9.5 grains and a heavy crimp.

I guess I will have to buy some other powder.
 
I'm using the exact same bullets. Crimp in the top groove, just below the first driving band. I know H110 likes a good hard crimp. My rounds are plain to see that they are crimped.
 
Your problem is likely caused by the bullets being too hard and using fast burning (target load) powder. With plain or bevel base hard cast bullets you usually have to use full power loads to cut down on leading--and usually gas checks.

This is often a problem with commercial cast bullets in .38 special and as you have found with 44 mag. Target velocity loads require a softer bullet alloy in order to minimize leading and to my knowledge none of the commercial casters offer a medium hard bullet in 357 or 44 cal. Thats why I cast my own.

44Bore
 
curtmg said:
I'm using the exact same bullets. Crimp in the top groove, just below the first driving band. I know H110 likes a good hard crimp. My rounds are plain to see that they are crimped.
Click to expand...

Sorry, maybe I was not clear. I am crimping the case, I just do not see a "gas check crimp" groove.

44MAG, so you are saying the lead is too hard? I know these are not heavy loads (as far as 44 mag goes), but they are significantly hotter than the first loads I had (IIRC they were around 700-800 fps) and while there was some leading with those first ones, it was nothing like these 700x loads - literally chunks / strips of lead coming out of the barrel when I patched it. Took forever to clean.

So if I run them even hotter, I may be able to solve the issue? I was happy with the first 6 rounds, they were very accurate and snappy. But after that things went downhill fast. I have a huge bucket of these bullets and would like to get them to work if I could.

BTW, for the fellow who suggested a hydrogen peroxide mix there was a link on another thread when someone mentioned this technique. You might want to check it out! Yikes.
 
I use the same bullets with 5.5 grains of Titegroup for about 850-900 fps and I haven't noticed any significant leading with them. I have also used the same brand successfully in 9mm, .38 Special, and .45 ACP.

I haven't tried them with H110 for full power loads yet, though.
 
Sounds like they are way to hard... sure these arn't made to be shot in 44 magum rifle or hot pistol loads? I would contact the person that sold them to you and ask whats up? They could be lubed is a poor lube too. Might want to invest in a lewis lead remover from brownells if your going to shoot cast bullets.
 
Wrap some 100% Chor Boy copper strnds around an old cleaning brush. Four or five strokes and the leading will be out and your barrel will be like new.

As to the leading, my bet it is gas cutting from two small a diameter bullet. If your cylinder mouths are smaller that your barrel's diameter you are going to be shooting undersized bullets for sure. I would slug the cylinders first, then the barrel. It certainly has little to do with your powder/bullet combo and I doubt the bullets are to hard, though to hard a bullet may cause leading in some gun/calber combos. The bullet tumbling likely is just a function of the leaded barrel and to small a diameter of bullet.

Take Care

Bob
 
Your local grocery store sells the 100% copper Chor Boy cleaning pads used in the kitchen to scrub pots. Just unravel them, cut what you want off with sizzers and wrap the strands around an old cleaning brush. It is really quite a simple method of removing leading from your barrel. Three or four swipes up and down your barrel and you will have all the leading out. JUst make sure they are 100% copper and not copper coated steel pads as the latter will scratch your barrel.

This is by far the easiest and quickest way to remove lead from a barrel. I sold my Lewis Lead Remover once I learned of this method. I don't use chemicals either.

Take Care

Bob
 
As others have mentioned, very hard cast, possibly undersized, and bevel base, is a def. recipe for leading and keyholing, regardless of velocity. In the 45/70 i have used med. hard, plain based bullets to over 2000fps. without problem. Some bullet molds just drop the bullets too small for your bore.
 
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