Lead-free ammo only?

The denialism and conspiratorial mindset is strong among hunters. . there are many scientific papers in peer-reviewed journals (the type that can be trusted, and replicated). The basic fact is that lead is bad if ingested or inhaled.. for birds and mammals, including humans! The abolition of lead-based paint and leaded gasoline was due mainly to the toxic effects on people. There are numerous studies showing elevated lead levels in the blood of people that eat hunter-killed big game (it's just impossible to remove all traces of the bullet fragments from the meat). Lead shot has long been banned for waterfowl hunting mainly because the birds seek out the spent shot and preferentially ingest the shot (over small stones and pebbles) to aid in digestion of food in the gizzard. The small stones (or lead shot) help ground up the food prior to digestion. The lead enters the blood stream and ends up poisoning the bird. It's still a major issue for some heavily hunted wetlands DECADES after the end of lead shot use, as the spent pellets are still scattered on the lake/marsh bottom. For other scavenging birds like eagles, vultures and condors, they end up with lead poisoning from eating carcasses and gut piles left by hunters.. anything from gophers to big game. They accidentally eat fragments of the lead bullets, lead ends up in the blood stream and they die. It is a serious conservation issue in some areas.

Hunters are doing themselves and the environment a favour by reducing the amount of lead shot being used. Easier in some cases than others; steel is now the standard for waterfowl hunting (acknowledged to be less effective than lead for killing, but can be adapted to) and there are a few other super expensive options (tungsten, bismuth, etc). Finding non-lead rifle ammunition is admittedly more difficult (I think one of the major producers of copper .22 ammo has ceased production?) but there are options, and their use is encouraged.

I still have a LOT of lead ammo in various calibres and gauges. I don't plan on tossing it; it will get used over time. But I do use steel shot for waterfowling and will use steel shot on certain federal lands where it is legally required, and I have copper bullet ammo for my primary big game rifle. Not all regulations are a load of BS or created by left-wing anti-hunters..
 
Buck1950 said:
Hard to argue with a bunch of retard Deniers. Hope their kids are OK after eating that deer.
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Ahh, so, how many dead lead poisioned eagles have you seen/found in your life ? Can you share that information, pls ?

I've seen probably half a dozen killed by vehicles and power distributing/generating facilities.

I've seen two killed beside the road while they were feeding on road kill. One of them was actually struck by the vehicle in front of me. It flew off the carcass crossing the highway and couldn't gain enough altitude in time and got hit by the van in front of me. That person just drove on while I stopped to see if there is some life left in the bird, but unfortunately not...

Another one flew into our helicopter which was bringing us to work and caused an emergency landing on a sand bank in the middle of the Iskut River. There could have been 4 people killed in worst case scenario !

Two more I found dead under transmission lines and one I found while fishing for Coho in the Skeena. It was half eaten up by coyotes/wolves (tracks indicating that) in the midst of a dozen half eaten, rotting salmon.

Yahh, the denial is strong with the lefties...
 
Here are few studies that document the impact of lead poisoning (spent ammo) on eagles in North America .. took about 2 minutes to come up with these; there are many more. Eagles also die from collisions with cars and aircraft, electric wires, wind turbines, etc. But eagles with lead poisoning are less likely to be found than the mortality causes listed above. They get sick and go hide somewhere and then die from the lead or a predator catches them because they can't fly away. So one person's experience of witnessing several eagles die from various collisions versus none seen dying from lead poisoning is a false comparison at best. Nobody is outlawing wind mills, powerlines or aircraft.. but mitigation efforts are put in place to reduce the hazard of eagles dying in these manners. Likewise, nobody is outlawing hunting (at least for this reason) but the mitigation strategy is to switch to non-lead ammo in certain circumstances.

Enjoy reading!

https://www.usgs.gov/news/national-...en an eagle,when game is dressed in the field.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scien...pread during and after,in the fall and winter.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abj3068

https://eagles.org/lead-toxicity-in-bald-eagles/

https://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/files/journals/jrr/v037n01/p00008-p00018.pdf

https://www.jstor.org/stable/24874080?seq=1


and for direct impacts on humans:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0005330
 
I like the idea of using lead free copper rounds in big game as there is less lead contamination. I think it should be optional on small game. Seagulls are in abundance and come and eat the gophers more often than birds of prey where I live. The waterfowl lead ban makes sense. I think most die heard waterfowlers really respect the game they chase and don’t want it to be impacted. I see no eagle shortages anywhere I live, so their poisoning seems unimportant to me.

Steel shot does wound and later kill more waterfowl than lead did. I routinely find crippled ducks and geese while hunting or dead ones that are clearly been dead for days.

The end game is to make it as expensive as possible to hunt or shoot. That’s one of the main reasons gun ownership has declined in Europe. It’s only for the rich.

I follow the steel shot laws as a hunting ban would be terrible and around my area the do a good job of checking hunters.

There’s always an old timer you have to ask politely to put his lead away or go sit in the truck.
 
Buck1950 said:
Hard to argue with a bunch of retard Deniers. Hope their kids are OK after eating that deer.
Click to expand...
some facts but a lot of fiction a very good friend of mine a waterfowl biologist spent 6 years studying lead and waterfowl and the findings where no where near the propaganda ghat is written
i'm not talking about the fact that lead is harmful i'm talking about how lead is ingested and taken in by birds and animals
i will shut this one down right out of the shoot birds do not seek out lead to use in there crop
but we know the government does not lie to us look what happened from 2019 to 2021 the scamdemick
 
Hey struff - I guess Post 24 is all BS ? Raptors (carnivorous birds) do not "seek out lead", but when they eat a gut pile or find a yote that was left, there is often a good bit of lead fragments in that 'dinner'. An Eagle only weighs a few pounds so 1-200g of bullet frags will f-it up. Maybe you don't believe in 'lead poisoning' too ? More Govt BS ?
And I presume "... right out of the shoot ..." mean "Right out of the chute". Or was that a crappy pun ?
 
It has everything to do with "poisoning", either directly, or indirectly, somewhere down the food chain, that the bald eagle, that stupid, ugly bird that the Yankees hold sacrosanct. Nothing more, nothing less.
Do some research as to why lead shot, for migratory game, was banned 30-some-odd years ago. It has zero to do with humans ingesting lead.
 
if you want so repopulate with eagles come to southern nova scotia and get some as we have plenty here. in the valley there are plenty as they feed them dead chickens and the population is good there.
 
The two-faced response of the hunting community to this issue hurts us more than a switch to non-toxic ammunition ever will. A community of “sportsmen” and “conservationists” who claim to be a responsible part of environmental management, denying science and avoiding a switch to viable and less harmful options. What happened to responsible stewardship of the environment and respect for wildlife?

Want to look like a bunch of dumb rednecks the anti’s portray us to be? Congratulations, mission accomplished.

Facts: Lead is toxic. Lead exposure has detrimental effects to non-target species. The science is sound.

We can either advocate for and implement solutions ourselves, or solutions will be imposed by others from outside the community. I already know which will be better for our community long term.
 
The fact is that lead is toxic. It is in fact harmful. When it's introduced into the food chain it effects all the links in the chain and diminishes the overall health of the animals that are in the environment, weather you see the effect personally or not. It has a cumulative effect and does not have a natural method of being neutralized.
As a hunter I consider myself to be a conservationist. Using science to make intelligent choices to reduce harm to the environment is a simple choice that benefits me and everyone else. Most new firearms are being designed with the intent to use alternate types of projectiles and their general performance is becoming superior through new technology and tooling. Sure your old faithful 308 or 270 may not like to throw copper pills but that's not a good reason to not try them. It could just be time to use the older slow twist rifle for practice at the range and get something new and modern for your hunting purposes. Lead projectiles are not superior to copper. If they were they wouldn't be wrapped in copper and have bonding agents added to keep them together. They are only less expensive (for now) and appropriate for the firearm type they were developed for.
I'm not saying run out and buy a new gun or stop using lead pills. Just don't kid yourself as to why you should consider alternatives. The last deer I shot with my 270WSM and 150 grain ABLR's (handloads) at about 170 yards kinda blew up. Big exit and massive blood shock. It was a pain in the backside to gather the blood shock and fragments (to properly dispose of) so that I wasn't leaving a toxic gut pile. That was my realization that I wanted to use copper instead. It would make things easier in the field and better for everyone/everything else If I changed to copper. My choice, my reasons.
When it was time to get a new hunting rifle I chose a cartridge and rifle that can excel at monolithic pills. Long heavy for caliber ones that out perform bonded lead in almost every aspect. But the gun is designed to use the coppers. Yes it can still shoot leaded but for what advantage?
Yes times will change. Lead will become a thing of the past in relation to hunting for sure. When? I can't say. But it's happening slowly now.
Being stubborn about change won't stop it. I just chose to buy a new surf board and ride the wave. Cheers
 
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