lead pistol bullets for rifles

[Super Scout]

A .357 pistol gas checked bullet (with accuracy) from my hand gun gets a book velocity of 1003 fps. I beefed up the velocity for my Marlin up to 1178 fps. Has any one used or experimented with lead bullets in a rifle ie: 358 Winchester? I'm interested in what velocities you happened to attain with which powders. What sould one look at for top velocities in lead bullets out of a rifle?

 

[blindside]

What sould one look at for top velocities in lead bullets out of a rifle?

All depends on the hardness of the projectile and the pressure of the cartridge. cast bullets typically like to be .002 over bore slugged size to get max accuracy. I dont have the link in my puter no more,but if you google losangeles cast shooters society they have posted several pages of info that will help you....Let me know if you cant find it and I'll try to help

 

[Dogleg]

I've taken cast bullets up to 2400 in rifles, but they were heat treated, home cast rifle bullets. 2200 fps or less produced slightly better accuracy, and practically no leading on smooth barrels.Most of my rifles were happiest around 1600-1700. My 35 Whelen shot well at that speed with a 205 gr gas check bullet.
Commercial handgun bullets aren't nearly as hard, I wouldn't expect this kind of speed out of them. I barely graze the bullets with the sizer, about .001 over groove diameter. .002 might be even better, but with my molds and alloys that would be bigger than the "as cast" diameter.
Dogleg

 

[hs4570]

In .308 win........150 gr cast to 2500 fps... after that accuracy fails
180 gr cast to 2200 with accuracy

in 303 British......200 gr cast.....2100 fps .. accurate

444 marlin, 416 rem mag, 45/70....2000 fps..accurate.....

..these are not pure lead loads......wheel weights and linotype or pure lino..

I"m sure some here can go beyond that ........been to 3000 fps.....however accuracy wasn't along for the ride...

hs4570.......your mileage may vary

 

[ben hunchak]

In testing cast bullets i have run certain bullets including the 200gr. hard cast Fl. Pt. gas check beyond 2500fps in .35 cal., best accuracy was well below that level though. Some hardcast plain base .45 cal. rifle bullets have been pushed to 2200 fps and still accurate, the larger the cal. the less fussy they are! It is very important that the cast bullets are at least .001-.003" oversize to help accuracy and avoid leading...this is even more important with hard cast bullets!

 

[Rick]

Has any one used or experimented with lead bullets in a rifle ie: 358 Winchester? I'm interested in what velocities you happened to attain with which powders. What sould one look at for top velocities in lead bullets out of a rifle?

I shoot a lot of .35 pistol bullets out of our .35 caliber rifles. There are times when I'm just too lazy to cast, size and lube, heat treat, etc., so I shoot either bulk lead bullets bought for PPC competition or look for boxes of jacketed bullets that are being sold with factory blemishes. More than adequate for practice and gopher hunting.

You seem to be focused on velocity. You can get higher velocities with lead bullets - Tom Gray was cleaning house in cast bullet benchrest matches with a .308 and velocities above 2500 fps. I believe his groups were around .2 MOA... Most of the cast bullet benchresters seem to settle on loads around 2000 fps.

HOWEVER, the faster you drive cast bullets in rifles, the more demanding it becomes to retain accuracy and not have leading. Generally speaking, I would say there are three primary requirements.

1. Bullet hardness. Bullet hardness has to be matched to the operating pressure of the load you are using. Water quenching bullets or using linotype can help, but there is an element of chance on whether the hardness will be within the range requred - bullets can be too hard, as well as too soft. I prefer to heat treat bullets in the oven for a predetermined time at a predetermined temperature. I use an LBT hardness tester, and this seems to work for me.
   
2. Bullet fit. The bullet needs to closely fit the ball seat/leade. It doesn't matter what the bullet size is in relation to the bore - what matters is that the bullet fits the seat/leade very tightly. If gases can get around the bullet in the seat/leade at the time of firing, you will get gas cutting and blowby in the time between the bullet leaving the case mouth and obdurating in the bore. I have my grandfather's old 1895 Winchester in 30 US; I could size those bullets four thou over bore diameter and they still wouldn't be as big as they should be. Sized .316, it shoots extremely well. The seriously competitive cast bullet benchresters use swaging dies that are a match to the profile of their chamber - they swage their cast bullets to a precise fit in the swaging die prior to loading.
   So don't worry about bullet size versus bore size - when the bright light appears behind the bullet, trust me: they will size down to whatever the bore diameter is when they get there. I slug my lead/chambers, measure them up (or get them measured in the case of a barrel with an odd number of lands), and then get a sizing die ground as required. Robert Stillwell does excellent work in this regard, and his turnaround time is very good.
   
3. bullet design. Spitzer bullets, sadly, just don't seem to do that well. There's assorted theories on this, but the bottom line is the accuracy boys and the mould makers who cater to them like Eagan (who just passed away this spring) use very blunt nosed bullets with long bearing surfaces.

This is a bullet I designed for cast bullet competition; it worked so well that I scaled it up to .35. It is pretty typical of competition type designs, and that big flat meplat also makes this kind of design pretty good for hunting as well.

Other than all the above, it seems that the bigger the caliber of the bullet, the easier it is to get acceptable results.