Leading Problems: 9mm Load with W231

.223Savage

.223Savage

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I started loading 9mm for my Beretta M9 and am a bit concerned about possible barrel leading. I used 124g lead round nose bullets from Plains Ammunition and 4.1g of W231.

After 5 shots I noticed a buildup of lead in the grooves near the breach. The lead came out with some lead solvent and a brass brush but it has caused me to rethink the load.

The recipe comes from the Hogden site which suggests 3.9 - 4.4 g of W231 for 125g lead bullets. I calibrated my scale so I should have been within the range suggested. Factory copper jacketed bullets presented no problems.

My past experience with barrel leading was as a result of excess speed from too much powder as a result of a now gone bad scale.

What am I doing wrong? Is W231 not an ideal powder for 9mm?

Thanks
 
I use the exact same recipe. I use a 124 grain lead RN bullets and 4.1 grains of W231. I have no leading problems. Make sure all the lube isn't worn off the cast bullets. If they look a little shy of lube buy some Lee Liquid Alox bullet lubricant($4 a bottle) and give them another coat. my 2 cents
 
I've loaded and shot about 2k lead 124's in my Sig 226. With 4.4gr of 231 I would get a fair amount of leading, and after a few hundred rounds I'd start to see keyholing and very poor accuracy.

It's really a factor of velocity and the hardness of your bullets. When I made lighter loads (under 1000 fps) the leading would go away. I used 231 in my 9mm exclusively for 2 years with good results with lead, jacketed and plated. With lead though I now use heavier bullets (147gr) at lower velocity.
 
Your lead bullets may be to small for your bore as sizes can be .354 to .357" or more, bullets that don't fit your bore well, will cause leading no matter how hard they are. Some commercial outfits use a hard lube that is useless for the job it is meant for, hard lubes are used so the bullets won't gum up during shipping and arrive a mess, this however does not help the bullet riding down the bore.
 
ok - I have never loaded for 9mm, only 45 (W231) & 38 Super for IPSC, so give it a grain of salt, but ... if you use lead bullets, expect leading in your barrel. I believe Hoppes have a brass mesh for removing lead during barrel cleaning, others recommend shooting jacketed bullets to remove the lead. I went with the wire mesh. Your cleaning intervals will tend to reflect the learnings from your accuracy (and your own anal cleaning attitudes). 400-600 rounds was a nice interval for me.
 
I use 3.7 gr. 231 with 125 gr. cast lead bullit out of my Mod. 92 FS for PPC duty match with no problems. Just under 1000 FPS. Good accuracy out to 25 m. No real cleaning of the gun until 1000 - 1500rnds. I shoot 4-5000 a year and swab the barrel maybe 2-3 times a year. Probably not a real good idea to shot jacketed bullits to clean out a leaded barrel.
 
Nothing wrong with running a few jacketed bullets thru ever 50 or 100 lead bullets but it sounds like there is something wrong with the cast bullets your using... If they are production bullets any they are using alox I wouldn't even bother... if they are good production bullets they should have a grease groove this is filled with wax... If its filled with wax then your bullets are to hard or soft for the velocity. If they are hard speed up the loads and if they are soft reduce the loads and try again... I shoot cast bullets and they shoot as clean as FMJ no leading what so ever... I make my own but have commerical equiptment.
 
i think ben hunchak is right. i have a berreta M9. i was getting leading in my bore as well. the load is a starting load in the lyman cast bullet book. the same loads shot good and left no leading in my S&W. i slugged the barrel in the M9. it measures out at .357. the S&W measures out at .355.
 
Thanks for all the good info.

I measured the lead bullets, they are .355 - .356 and have a single groove filled with a light blue, waxy lubricant. The rest of the bullet is clean and dry.

I was shooting at 25 yards and did not notice any keyholing but I just shot 5 or 6 rounds as I forgot my magazines in the rush to get to the range.

I guess my nest step is to try a reduced charge and see what affect it has on the barrel.

Thank you all for the input.
 
A mixture of 1/2 vinegar and 1/2 Hydrogen peroxide will remove all the lead from your barell. Just plug the muzzle end(I use a plastic bag taped around the oustide) and fill her up wait about 5-10 minutes all the lead will come out with a patch when pushed through.

As far as reducing the load...if the leadding gets worse try to increase the load as the bullet has to obiterate upon firing to seal the bore, anyhow if you are using these for IPSC you will ned just above 1000 fps to make minor.
 
i wish someone would take that hogden's book and BURN IT- i've used plains bullets for years - since the 90's and they are a particularly HARD CAST bullet, both in the 124 grain round nose and the 130 swc( which is what i use) and that means that you can use a much HOTTER load- typically, i'm running 4.7 to 4.9 grains of 231 ( got that from my speer 11) with the 130 grain swc( the old 38 super bullet weight) out of a beretta 92 sb- read the gun is OLD- and it does run to 356- i've miked the barrel- i also load for an uzi which means we have to generate eough recol to push that breechblock ALL THE WAY BACK, or she goes FULL AUTO- through experimentation I KNOW WHERE THIS POINT IS in my powder charge, and it's somewhere around what the hogdens max load is
imo, hogdens is WAY OFF THE MARK on this one
my SPEER book gives a start of 4.6 with a TOP END of 5 even, USING A 125 grain - with the plains, you should be able to load MUCH hotter as his hardness runs almost to the jacketed velocities- as usual, start with the lower load and work your way up
 
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Within most pistol velocities the hardness of the bullet is only one of the factors that determines if it leads--the fit of the bullet to the barrel is MUCH more important. Ben nailed it dead on--most 9mm's require a .356 or even .357 bullet to prevent leading--only problem is with some brands of brass teh case walls are too thick and if your barrel has a tight chamber--they won't chamber reliably.

The hardness thing is really evident in the .38 special or .357 mag. --if you load target loads with the swaged hollow base wadcutters you will get virtually no leading--if you load a hard cast wadcutter or plain base semi-wadcutter at target velocities you will get significant leading in the first inch or so of the barrel.

FWIW, 44Bore
 
Aside from ensuring your bullets are sized .356/.357 the use of soft rather than hard lubes will reduce if not eliminate leading. Hard lubes from commercial casters are applied due to the fact their bullets are packed loose and often subject to shipping. A soft lube will to consumed as it runs the length of the barrel which is as it should be. Hard lube bullets often can be picked up on the range where no lube has been consumed. This is the primary reason why you see leading in the first half inch of yuor barrels.

The 2nd contributer to leading is the use of to hard a bullet. Obuteration must take place to ensure a good seal of the bore to prevent gases from escaping by the bullet and cutting lead. Commercial casters will use hard bullets in applications where softer would be better simply to withstand shipping and bulk packaging.

Lastly the use of the Lee FCD die can contibute to the leadng problem. Some lead shooters, in their quest to make pretty bullets, will run their cases through the FCD. What happens is, while they smooth out the outside of the case they also swage down the bullet from its .356/.357 diameter to something approaching .355. Well .355 is the size you want for jacketed bullets it is a no no for shooting lead.

The formula for Felix Lube is posted on the Cast Bullet Forum. It is a soft lube and works for pistol and rifle.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=543

Take Care

Bob
 
just measured a 130 grain from plains- it's a.355 - there's no reason to think his mould for the 124 would be a different diameter- if memory serves the harness was about 14- like i said, almost as hard as a jacket- i tried running 357's in this beretta years ago and got keyholing when running 158s - apperently you can't pack enough powder in the case to get the velocity needed- or it just plain didn't like them- now these were raw 357, and not resized to 356
 
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t-star

I assume those are lead bullets. They would be better if they were softer to obuterate. I would be real surprised if you don't get leading from them. I good rule of thumb for pistol is that lead bullets should be sized 1/1000 over bore ie minimum of .356.

I would expect bullets sized .355 would be less accurate than bullets sized .356/.357.

It is not uncommon to find older 9MM guns from Europe with bores of .357 and as tight as .354

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
I assume those are lead bullets. They would be better if they were softer to obuterate. I would be real surprised if you don't get leading from them. I good rule of thumb for pistol is that lead bullets should be sized 1/1000 over bore ie minimum of .356.

I would expect bullets sized .355 would be less accurate than bullets sized .356/.357.

It is not uncommon to find older 9MM guns from Europe with bores of .357 and as tight as .354

Take Care

Bob
Click to expand...
they're LEAD - from the EXACT same manufacturer but 130 instead of 124 grains- however, you have to look at his point of view- ie do i cast a bullet hard for maximum velocity or do i cast it soft to properly obuterate, and as you said, the 9mm bores run 354 to 357 - this fellow has quite a following around calgary( try to buy a bucket sometime) and this is the first i've heard of a leading complaint, and i suspect it's the powder charge- i run that same bullet through my tokarev, beretta, and uzi( when we could shoot them) along with my aforementioned powder charge( which is CONSIDERABLY higher ) with no problems-
 
No one has mentioned the barrel as being a factor in the leading. I think it is a major factor. With a new gun, you may get one made just before the cutting tool was replaced, and your barrel may be rough. You may not see it, but the cast bullet can.
I've seen it recommended that about 300, to 500, jacketed bullets should be fired in a new gun, to smooth it out, before trying lead (cast) bullets.
I had never heard of the vinegar and hydrogen bit, but it sounds good.
The old faithful Hoppe's #9 is pretty good. Soak a patch and run it through the barrel, then next day a bronze brush should easily clean out the lead.
Getting back to the barrel. I used to shoot big pistol silhouette. I have owned five 44 magnum revolvers, two Smith & Wesson and three Ruger single actions. Neither Smith collected much lead, nor did one Ruger. But another Ruger, same model Super Blackhawk, leaded so bad I didn't keep it long.
I poured my own bullets and the mixture used was by no means scientific and varried considerable. But the same guns always reacted the same, regardless which batch of bullets I was using.
Another thing, I shot the same bullets in two different 44 Marlins and neither collected a speck of lead. The same applies to a Marlin 45-70.
 
t-Star

Hard or soft you can drive them about the same speed. I would think hard bullets would lead more than soft within reason. Leading is caused in the main from gas cutting or as just been suggested, a rough barrel. Hard bullets cast to to small will lead more that soft all else being equal...and it seldom is. For 9MM I wouldn't think it would make much difference. I have no idea why the caster would size his 9MM bullets .355. I have had .355 cast bullets keyhole in less than 10' out of a CZ85.

If they work for you, great.

Take Care

Bob
 
I have mentioned this before but the easiest way to get lead out of a barrel is to wrap some 100% copper chor boy strands around an old wire brush. A few strokes and the lead will be out of your barrel. Works a lot faster than any other method I have encountered.

Take Care

Bob
 
223 Savage:
If those Plains bullets are the ones I think they are they have a bevel base. You aren't going to get enough obturation to overcome that bevel. It is more or less normal for bevel base bullets to lead worse than flat base, particularly if they are an ill fit for your barrel. It's a matter of the bevel allowing gas cutting all around the perimeter of the base. You may be able to improve the situation a bit by adding a tumble lube of Lee Liquid Alox lube and letting it dry thoroughly before use. Slug your barrel to determine it's diameter and get bullets .001 to .002 larger and try them. If you can find a flat base bullet they will be a bit finicky to seat straight but will likely solve some problems by design by virtue of a better seal.
 
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