Lee 6 Cavity Disappointment

[Canuck44]

Never heard of tapered chambers until I read it on this thread.

Sharps your issues is OAL of your cartridges. Not a difficult solve. Just shorten them up.

I have posted the following before.

1. take the barrel off your gun.
2. measure the length of your bullet
3. drop the bullet into the barrels chamber
4, measure from the base of the bullet to the top of the barrel hood where a loaded cartridge would seat flush to the hood.
5. Add the two lengths together and you have the maximum OAL for a loaded cartridge for that gun using that bullet. Back off a few thousandths to allow for our variances in our hobby equipment and I guarantee your cartridges of that length will load like butter into your gun if your bullet sizing is correct at .452, Note: I would suggest you size your 45acp bullets .451 to better reflect your bore diameter when you use coated bullets but the difference is not significant.

Take Care

Bob
ps If you are using Lee sizing dies do check your sized bullets with a micrometer. Just because Lee says the sizer is .452 doesn't mean the sizer does size the bullets .452 based upon my experience with Lee sizing dies.

 

[Sharps '74]

In future I will size PC bullets .451 to be safe.

I'll try your technique for measuring OAL as well.

The odd thing is the Lee PC bullets did mike .452 after sizing in the Lee die.

Thanks for the tips!

 

[Canuck44]

In future I will size PC bullets .451 to be safe.

I'll try your technique for measuring OAL as well.

The odd thing is the Lee PC bullets did mike .452 after sizing in the Lee die.

Thanks for the tips!

You are welcome. You can use that method of measuring for any pistol application. Remember to subtract a few thousandths to allow for our hobby equipment. I suspect loading the cartridges a bit shorter will solve your problem. With the .45acp case head spacing off of the case mouth and with straight walled cases shortening with resizing most instances involving failure to go into battery relate to OAL of the cartridge due to the olgive hitting the rifling. Failure to remove the belling completely was one I run into once in awhile as well. LOL

Let us know how you make out.

Take Care

Bob

 

[B]

OK, I'll spell it out for you ....

If a 1911 won't reliably feed a short "ash tray" HP, why would it feed a similar short FN bullet any better?

Thanks for your condescending comment.

My question was rhetorical. I don't understand your complete aversion to just trying a shorter OAL. You mold is fine and I would say you are downgrading by moving to a SWC from this profile.

In future I will size PC bullets .451 to be safe.

I'll try your technique for measuring OAL as well.

The odd thing is the Lee PC bullets did mike .452 after sizing in the Lee die.

Thanks for the tips!

Your issue is extra width where it shouldn't be. Sizing smaller likely won't help since it won't touch the part causing the issue. It didn't for any of the molds I have this issue with.

 

[Sharps '74]

Apologies for my reaction .....

 

[Sharps '74]

This is one of the "everyone knows" myths dispelled in 'Hatcher's Notebook" where Gen. Julian Hatcher reports on shooting .380 ACP rds from P-08s and P-38s with no problems. The extractor holds the cartridge in place for the primer to be struck. Ejection had to be manual, of course.

One of the US gun writers (Wiley Clapp?) was a USAF target shooter and armourer. He has a friend who delights in sending him pics of 1" groups fired from a premium 1911 mounted in a Ransom rest. The ammo was loaded in unsorted range prick brass.

A tight roll crimp or taper crimp pretty much precludes case mouth headspacing as well.

This pretty much dispels the myth of the .45 ACP/.380 ACP/9mm Luger cases seating on the case mouth.

 

[Canuck44]

This is one of the "everyone knows" myths dispelled in 'Hatcher's Notebook" where Gen. Julian Hatcher reports on shooting .380 ACP rds from P-08s and P-38s with no problems. The extractor holds the cartridge in place for the primer to be struck. Ejection had to be manual, of course.

One of the US gun writers (Wiley Clapp?) was a USAF target shooter and armourer. He has a friend who delights in sending him pics of 1" groups fired from a premium 1911 mounted in a Ransom rest. The ammo was loaded in unsorted range prick brass.

A tight roll crimp or taper crimp pretty much precludes case mouth headspacing as well.

This pretty much dispels the myth of the .45 ACP/.380 ACP/9mm Luger cases seating on the case mouth.

Not so fast lad, If this is the case and it isn't, shorten ten cases 1/4" and see how well the cartridges fire. Some will because the extractor will hold them but some won't. Put a tight roll crimp on cases and you can achieve almost the same result in some guns. To say 45acp cartridges head space off of the extractor by design is a bit of a stretch. Hatcher did not have the benefit of computers and electronic imaging.

Like Clapp I have not found any significant difference in accuracy mixing 45acp brass. There are to many variables involving accuracy using the Browning locking design to note any difference cases length might make. I have measured a substantial number of 45 acp cases over the years and have yet to find any that were .898" in length, includes new Winchester cases. None were longer. Incidentally I am not claiming I can shoot like Clapp but I would notice any difference in the accuracy I am capable of.

The Ruger .45acp SA Revolvers all have chambers cut to ensure proper head spacing and to prevent the cartridges from passing through the cylinders. :>)

Take Care

Bob
ps I have a copy of one of Hatcher's books. I don't recall ever reading where he claimed the 45acp cartridge head spaced off the extractor.

 

[Sharps '74]

I think we have a reading comprehension problem here .....

Go back and re-read Hatcher's comments on shooting .380 ACP rds in 9mm chambers and what I said about it.

He thought it could be done and proved it with hands on testing, without "computers and electronic imaging". He did NOT say that the .45 ACP headspaces off the extractor! Nor did I.

Later today I may give chapter & verse from "Hatcher's Notebook" on the topic.

It wasn't Wiley Clapp that shot those tight groups, but a friend of his.

If I wanted prove the point, I wouldn't shorten .45 ACP brass, I'd try .45 GAP brass.

However, I'm willing to take Hatcher at his word.

 

[Canuck44]

I think we have a reading comprehension problem here .....

Go back and re-read Hatcher's comments on shooting .380 ACP rds in 9mm chambers and what I said about it.

He did NOT say that the .45 ACP headspaces off the extractor! Nor did I.

If I wanted prove the point, I wouldn't shorten .45 ACP brass, I'd try .45 GAP brass.

However, I'm willing to take Hatcher at his word.

If he didn't say it then why are you going on about it like he did? I know he didn't say the 45acp head spaces off the extractor you implied he did as indicated in the above to quotes. Not sure if you are agreeing the 45acp, like the 9MM head spaces off the case mouth or you think it head spaces off the extractor, Frankly I don't care what you think. Shorten your OAL on your cartridges and I am sure they will run fine. If they still don't feed, sell the gun.

Take Care

Bob

 

[Sharps '74]

Bob - I am devastated that you don't care what I think, but I think your argument is with General Hatcher, not me. Neither one of us said that .45 ACP rds headspace off the extractor by design.

Go back and read post #26 ..... then read the following chapter & verse from page 239 of "Hatchers' Notebook".

"It is quite possible to fire the .45 ACP cartridge in the .455 Webley & Scott Self-Loading Pistol, even though with this gun and cartridge combination there us about 1/8" excess headspace. If the cartridges are loaded into the chamber singly, they go in so far that neither the firing nor the extractor can reach them, and they will not fire; but if they are loaded from the magazine, they can rise up under the extractor hook and this holds them close enough to the breechblock so that the firing pin can strike the primer, and they fire, extract, eject and reload just as if they were intended for this gun, in spite of the 1/8" excess headspace. I have fired many rounds of .45 ACP ammunition through the .455 Webley & Scott Self-loading Pistol.

Likewise, the 9mm Short or .380 ACP cartridge which is .080" shorter than the 9mm Parabellum cartridge, may be fired from the magazine in the Luger os the P-38, but this little cartridge has insufficent power to eject and reload, so the slide must be pulled back by hand after each shot. I have fired many of these cartridges in both these guns with no trouble as long they feed up from the magazine. If loaded in the chamber by hand, they will not fire because the extractor will not catch them and all in the Luger and only part of the time in the P-38.

I have also fired the .455 Webley & Scott Revolver cartridges MK II in the .45 Colt New Service Revolver with an excess headspace of .037", and I have fired the .455 Automatic Webley & Scott Pistol cartridge in this same Colt New Service .45 with an excess headspace of .051". Likewise, in trying everything I could think of, I have fired quite a few .45 ACP cartridges in a Colt New Service revolver calibre .455, with an excess heasdspace for this combination of .051".

In all of the above shooting, accuracy was excellent and no bad results of any kind were observed. The only trouble to be expected was a possibility of hangfires or misfires from having the primer too far away from the firing pin, but even this did not occur".

So much for your contention that headspace is critical in .45 ACP revolvers like the Ruger SA revolvers. Likewise the Ruger 9mm/.357 revolvers. If the firing pin can reach the primer, it will go "Bang!".

What Hatcher didn't mention was that he likely had to eject a lot of cases with a rod or a pencil, but he was talking a stop measure if proper ammunition was unavailable.