I was recently given a Lee and Enfeild No.4 Mark 1. It has a sporterized stock and need a little clean up. I want to do the sniper shoot in the Listowel and surronding areas. I was going to put a no-gunsmith scope mount with a Simmions 4.5-14x40 AO scope. Would this setup work? Or does anyone have and other suggestions or ideas?
Lee and Enfeild for sniper shoot
- Thread starter redneck4life
- Start date
punkrockboy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Eastern Bantario!
Thats Lee Enfield.........
Have you ever shot the gun??? How does it group???I know Ive shot quite a few enfields, generall, the sporterized ones in my experience arent near as accurate, also, generally the no gunsmithing scopemounts arent the most secure in my experience!!
Have you ever shot the gun??? How does it group???I know Ive shot quite a few enfields, generall, the sporterized ones in my experience arent near as accurate, also, generally the no gunsmithing scopemounts arent the most secure in my experience!!
Do it up and go have fun!! We all start somwhere!! I have a similar setup and I can placce a shot anywhere it needs to be. Remember though, your are never going to be competative against proper sniper shooters with thier rigs and experience, so have fun and take it all in stride.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Rather than shooting groups, set up several targets at a variety of ranges and see how many shots it takes to get on each target. Record your call, your hit or miss, and the scope adjustment and necessary correction to get on target. This type of shooting is much more interesting and a greater confidence builder than shooting groups. It will also make you a better shot than the group shooters because you'll know what you can do on demand.
If you record all your data, you will have a valuable reference tool to fall back on. Important information would include the date, time, temperature, wind, humidity, altitude, location, estimated range, correct range, target direction, rifle, cartridge, load information, position, light, scope height above the bore, scope setting, shot angle, and target speed if applicable. You can record this stuff in a simple notebook, or you can purchase a rifle log, it doesn't really matter. In time you will be able to make a ballistic card for your rifle and load, to give corrections for range, wind, and target speedm at a glance. If shooting up hill or down hill is relevant, you can purchase an angle-cosine indicator for range correction. But what you need more than gimicks is a pile of ammo, and a note book and pencil and some simple targets.
To start, if you want to use bulls-eye targets that's fine, but as you improve you might prefer to use plain silhouettes with no aiming points or perhaps steel knock down targets. To help with range estimation it is useful to know the size of your target and what certain measurements of the reticule subtend at a particular range.
There are formulas to make wind estimation quicker. Dividing the angle of wind flag by 4 will give you a reasonable estimation of wind provided it is not over 25 mph. Learn to read mirage, this helps with wind velocity as well. If the wind is too strong, shoot directly into it, or directly away from it to minimize the effect.
Make it fun, have fun, and you will improve quickly.
If you record all your data, you will have a valuable reference tool to fall back on. Important information would include the date, time, temperature, wind, humidity, altitude, location, estimated range, correct range, target direction, rifle, cartridge, load information, position, light, scope height above the bore, scope setting, shot angle, and target speed if applicable. You can record this stuff in a simple notebook, or you can purchase a rifle log, it doesn't really matter. In time you will be able to make a ballistic card for your rifle and load, to give corrections for range, wind, and target speedm at a glance. If shooting up hill or down hill is relevant, you can purchase an angle-cosine indicator for range correction. But what you need more than gimicks is a pile of ammo, and a note book and pencil and some simple targets.
To start, if you want to use bulls-eye targets that's fine, but as you improve you might prefer to use plain silhouettes with no aiming points or perhaps steel knock down targets. To help with range estimation it is useful to know the size of your target and what certain measurements of the reticule subtend at a particular range.
There are formulas to make wind estimation quicker. Dividing the angle of wind flag by 4 will give you a reasonable estimation of wind provided it is not over 25 mph. Learn to read mirage, this helps with wind velocity as well. If the wind is too strong, shoot directly into it, or directly away from it to minimize the effect.
Make it fun, have fun, and you will improve quickly.
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Group shooting is an essential starting point in any shooting training programme. It develops consistency in the shooter and it establishes a baseline for what the rifle/ammo is capable of before trying to adapt to other conditions. Otherwise a shooter will be chasing errors caused by the group all over the target, especially if they are using a sporterized No.4 with simmons scope - don't expect it to shoot like laser beam 
Get an example of the the type of target that will be used for the matches you plan to attend. If you find the rifle/ammo cannot group within the size of bull of the target used at the competition you are planning to attend, you'll need to evaluate your equipment options, or simply go to have fun.
The training process for just about any match:
Develop a group (prone or bench) and learn the aiming point(s) for the target.
Move the group into the centre of the target to be used.
Develop the various firing positions used in the competition.
Move further back and learn the wind, if applicable.
Then start shooting faster (until it starts compromising the group).
Get an example of the the type of target that will be used for the matches you plan to attend. If you find the rifle/ammo cannot group within the size of bull of the target used at the competition you are planning to attend, you'll need to evaluate your equipment options, or simply go to have fun.
The training process for just about any match:
Develop a group (prone or bench) and learn the aiming point(s) for the target.
Move the group into the centre of the target to be used.
Develop the various firing positions used in the competition.
Move further back and learn the wind, if applicable.
Then start shooting faster (until it starts compromising the group).
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Group shooting is an essential starting point in any shooting training programme. It develops consistency in the shooter and it establishes a baseline for what the rifle/ammo is capable of before trying to adapt to other conditions. Otherwise a shooter will be chasing errors caused by the group all over the target, especially if they are using a sporterized No.4 with simmons scope - don't expect it to shoot like laser beam
Get an example of the the type of target that will be used for the matches you plan to attend. If you find the rifle/ammo cannot group within the size of bull of the target used at the competition you are planning to attend, you'll need to evaluate your equipment options, or simply go to have fun.
The training process for just about any match:
Develop a group (prone or bench) and learn the aiming point(s) for the target.
Move the group into the centre of the target to be used.
Develop the various firing positions used in the competition.
Move further back and learn the wind, if applicable.
Then start shooting faster (until it starts compromising the group).
That's right, undermine this guy's faith in his rifle before he's fired a shot!
I've never seen a moose, caribou, bear or any other game killed with a MOA 5 shot group. Shooting groups is the fastest way to develop a false sense of confidence or worse to loose faith in what might be a very serviceable rifle. At one time, time on the range was to prepare one for what he would face in the field. Apparently this is becoming less relevant and the only purpose for range time it seems is to see the tools compete against each other rather than the men.
What can be gained by this fellow comparing his #4 to custom built target guns? That won't help him shoot any better, and his rifle has potential beyond what shooting groups will prove. It's up to him to find the limitations of his rifle, but I'd be surprised if he couldn't hit a 12" target at 400 yards with a pair of shots once he has worked up to that level. That would do more for his self confidence and self esteem than shooting a MOA group at 100. I've seen guys with #4's make cold bore first round hits on 12" targets at 600 yards with the issue sights, never mind the advantage of a scope, Simmons or otherwise.
Shooting groups is not sighting in. Sighting in, and developing the confidence to hold off or adjust the sight for wind and range has nothing to do with shooting groups. What is actually proven by shooting a 5 shot group that firing pairs won't tell you? It might tell you that your error increases as the barrel warms up, OK let me save you some time and ammo, your rifle will probably print in a wider dispersion from your point of aim as the barrel warms up. Shooting groups has little to do with shooting in any practical sense.
It didn't sound like the poster was ready for competition in any case, but you do point out a true short coming of modern rifle competition in that is has become irrelevant to practical shooting and that often the rifles used in such competitions would not be useful in the field for either hunting or fighting (military high power being the exception). The Lee Enfield has proven itself as useful in the field and has been carried by pioneers on every continent of the world, has killed more game and more men than any other, and will in all likelihood continue to do so for many years to come.
It might be worth while to encourage new shooters and advise them how to make the most of their gear rather than to disparage their rifles and tell them to sit in the corner until they can afford a real gun - or rather what you consider a real gun might be.
Shelldrake
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Right behind you,,
I'm with Quiet on this one.
NavyShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- XMU Local .303
Quiet's words speak with great volume.
NS
NS
Learn the TRUE Potential Of The Equipment You Have
As above, I percieve that Quiet has laid out a good programme. "Once upon a time" from 1983 to 1996 I had frequent access to a DND 500 yard Lakehead range where the NORA/NOSA DCRA Members had all sorts of opportunties to practice at 300-400-500 yard distance twice a week from April until October.
My No.4 Mk I Sniper rifle I had at that time would shoot routinely 10" or smaller five shot groups at 500 yards with 1969 era FN berdan primed issue ammunition
Also an iron sighted Moisin Nagant 91 with 1950s era 7>62 Russian would make the 12" steel impact target ring easily at 500 yards from the prone position as would my M-1 Garand.
You really NEED to wring out the equipment you have; the main challenge is to find ranges where you can shoot at longer distances at 300-400-500 yards and beyond.
Its one thing to shoot groups at 100-200 yards where the wind effect is neglible or wont show up fully your group dispersal; its another to try it "routinely" at 500 metres.
Since 1996 I have never found either a range or had the opportunity to do so much practice at the longer distances. We used to go there twice a week and have much enjoyment finding out that simple rifles and equipment really were capable of much more that we ever imagined.
The "equipment wars" will never cease; the current issue of the NRA American Rifleman features an articel on a 308 NATO calibre Kimber rifle for a mere $5000 that will out of the case shoot 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards = 2&1/2 groups at 500 or would it?
Ammunition quality and reading the wind, hold and familiarity with equipment: the Challenge awaits. Go and tackle it first with your .303 and an easy to mount scope.
IF you really do the challenge will Never Ever Go Away. A succession of rifles will follow and you will remember them all.
Thats what "riflemanship" has been for me over 55 years. It has been a great hobby and real interest. My "truest wins" in competition shooting where when I did not have the best equipment but still managed to prevail on a given day against all the others.
As above, I percieve that Quiet has laid out a good programme. "Once upon a time" from 1983 to 1996 I had frequent access to a DND 500 yard Lakehead range where the NORA/NOSA DCRA Members had all sorts of opportunties to practice at 300-400-500 yard distance twice a week from April until October.
My No.4 Mk I Sniper rifle I had at that time would shoot routinely 10" or smaller five shot groups at 500 yards with 1969 era FN berdan primed issue ammunition
Also an iron sighted Moisin Nagant 91 with 1950s era 7>62 Russian would make the 12" steel impact target ring easily at 500 yards from the prone position as would my M-1 Garand.
You really NEED to wring out the equipment you have; the main challenge is to find ranges where you can shoot at longer distances at 300-400-500 yards and beyond.
Its one thing to shoot groups at 100-200 yards where the wind effect is neglible or wont show up fully your group dispersal; its another to try it "routinely" at 500 metres.
Since 1996 I have never found either a range or had the opportunity to do so much practice at the longer distances. We used to go there twice a week and have much enjoyment finding out that simple rifles and equipment really were capable of much more that we ever imagined.
The "equipment wars" will never cease; the current issue of the NRA American Rifleman features an articel on a 308 NATO calibre Kimber rifle for a mere $5000 that will out of the case shoot 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards = 2&1/2 groups at 500 or would it?
Ammunition quality and reading the wind, hold and familiarity with equipment: the Challenge awaits. Go and tackle it first with your .303 and an easy to mount scope.
IF you really do the challenge will Never Ever Go Away. A succession of rifles will follow and you will remember them all.
Thats what "riflemanship" has been for me over 55 years. It has been a great hobby and real interest. My "truest wins" in competition shooting where when I did not have the best equipment but still managed to prevail on a given day against all the others.
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punkrockboy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Eastern Bantario!
Since the original post was regarding wether or not the sporterized lee/enfield was suitable for a sniper shoot, I would have to agree with quiet, you would want to see how the rifle shoots (groups) before one would even consider a competitive shoot!
I dont think many would question the ability or potential in the feild for an enfield, but a sporterized enfiel might not be the Ideal choice for a competitive sniper rifle(it may kill the confidence of a new shooter if he got his ass kicked at a competition)
Redneckforlife, dont let that stop you from trying it out though, take the gun to the range, and find out how it shoots, you never know, there are som really good enfield out there!
I dont think many would question the ability or potential in the feild for an enfield, but a sporterized enfiel might not be the Ideal choice for a competitive sniper rifle(it may kill the confidence of a new shooter if he got his ass kicked at a competition)
Redneckforlife, dont let that stop you from trying it out though, take the gun to the range, and find out how it shoots, you never know, there are som really good enfield out there!
