Lee bullet mould problem

blacksmithden

blacksmithden

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I thought I'd share a little experience I had with a 6 cavity, 45 cal bullet mould. I bought a brand new one, and wanted to cast enough to last me a couple of years. I went at it for a few hours per night for a week. After I'd had enough of that, I put my bucket of bullets on the scale and calculated that I had just over 4000. Good stuff.

I took them downstairs and started to run them through my Lyman lubrisizer. Oh oh. A lot of these things are out of round....And by out of round, I mean as much as 20 thou out of round. Some were ok. It worked out that 4 out of 6 were junk.

I took a look at the mould, expecting to see a blob of lead on the face or in one of the alignment holes. Nope...Nothing. everything looked good and it was closing properly. I cast another 60 and measured. Same thing. God damn it....It IS the mould. 4 of the holes have been made out of round. Hard to believe in this day and age of CNC machining, but there it is in living colour.

Anyway...Just a bit of advice. If you've been casting for years, and you think you can skip a step like quality control every once in a while, think again. There's no need to tell me Lee will replace the mould. I know they will. I'm just sharing my experience with the hope that it saves someone some grief in the future. I've had a few problems with Lee moulds over the years, but not many. This was certainly the worst screw up by far. All that being said.....My new 4 cavity Lyman mould and handles arrived last night. I'm done with cheap stuff. This will be the 4th Lyman mould I've owned, and I've never had a problem with one of theirs.
 
blacksmithden said:
I thought I'd share a little experience I had with a 6 cavity, 45 cal bullet mould. I bought a brand new one, and wanted to cast enough to last me a couple of years. I went at it for a few hours per night for a week. After I'd had enough of that, I put my bucket of bullets on the scale and calculated that I had just over 4000. Good stuff.

I took them downstairs and started to run them through my Lyman lubrisizer. Oh oh. A lot of these things are out of round....And by out of round, I mean as much as 20 thou out of round. Some were ok. It worked out that 4 out of 6 were junk.

I took a look at the mould, expecting to see a blob of lead on the face or in one of the alignment holes. Nope...Nothing. everything looked good and it was closing properly. I cast another 60 and measured. Same thing. God damn it....It IS the mould. 4 of the holes have been made out of round. Hard to believe in this day and age of CNC machining, but there it is in living colour.

Anyway...Just a bit of advice. If you've been casting for years, and you think you can skip a step like quality control every once in a while, think again. There's no need to tell me Lee will replace the mould. I know they will. I'm just sharing my experience with the hope that it saves someone some grief in the future. I've had a few problems with Lee moulds over the years, but not many. This was certainly the worst screw up by far. All that being said.....My new 4 cavity Lyman mould and handles arrived last night. I'm done with cheap stuff. This will be the 4th Lyman mould I've owned, and I've never had a problem with one of theirs.
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I had prob with my lee 45 acp 6 cav mold but it was alignment pins had been pushed back, so it dropped out round bullets.

When i sent email to lee they told me to send it back to them in the usa, so ended up fixing it myself.
 
Just like F55, I had a alignment pin pushed back too far in my 312-160 mold when i got it. All my bullets were out of round. I wasn't happy.
 
I still like my lee molds but I have more high end ones then lee molds now. There is a big difference in quality of the high end makers vs lee but lee still has their place in my casting hobby. I visually inspect the bullets but done usually measure them when doing a big casting session. Good lesion to be learned here.
 
I have used lee for years in .45acp. Usually 1in 50 were bad but the last time just about all were junk. Too big so when going thru the sizer die nearly had to stand in the handle to get them thru???? I have probably made 10,000 bolits with the die. wtf maybe will look at the pins.
 
I too have had a bad lee mold with the pins pushed in. I learned to always do a short quality control cast session with any new mold since then.

I bought that particular mold off of Amazon which is great for reruns. No cost return shipping, a full refund, a new purchase of the same mold, and thee days later I was casting again with a perfect mold. I got the full payment back two weeks after I believe once Amazon got the return package and processed the return.

For the most part I love supporting Lee products including their molds. I have four Lyman molds too and they are great. I can't say there's anything about them that makes me want to pay over double for Lyman molds over a good Lee one though.

There's room on my casting bench for Lee stuff. I like to purchase it on Amazon though for the easy returns if needed.
 
I've got a bunch (20+?) molds; LEE, RCBS, old and new Lyman, as well as a few others. Probably 5 are LEE. Mine are all fine. My LEE 44-200gr and .312-120gr have each cast a few thousand with no problems ever. I may not be the biggest fan of LEE stuff but I am still a fan.
 
The LEE TL tumble lube 6 cavity moulds really caught my eye. Talk about production & skipping steps. Supposedly, cast bullets come out of the mould the desired size. Just lube & go.
Didn't work out well at all. The 6 cavity tumble lube 124g 9mm bullet was the worst. The rear driving band was the only part of the bullet that sized to .356. Everything forward was undersize, wouldn't stabilize in flight & keyholed through the target.
Totally unacceptable!
Thr 200g 45acp mood & the .358 SWC mould weren't much better. On the upside, the .358 38special full wad cutter TL 6 cavity mold casts totally superior bullets. Target quality, on par or better than swagged WC's. All casts come out at .358, I liked this mold so much I bought another and it makes great WC too!
 
I have used plain Wheel weight lead in my Lee 124 gran 9mm TL Truncated Cone and they dropped at less than .356. These undersized bullets keyholed out of my P89 and 1911.

I added linotype to the WW melt, about 1 part lino to 6 parts WW, and the bullets dropped at .359

I then researched and found an article saying Lee molds are designed for use with Lyman #5 alloy, which contains 5% antimony which not only increases hardness but reduces bullet shrinkage as well.

Aside from changing my alloy, I also lowered melt temperature in my Lee 20 lb pot to a little lower than #6 on the thermostat. I used to pour at #7. Pouring at higher than required temps will result in higher shrinkage as well.

I will resize my 359 bullets to .357 and I am confident they will no longer keyhole.
 
Lee mold alignment pins are delicate. You need to close the mold softly or you stand a chance of damaging or unseating the pins. Some of the pins are so loose it's just about impossible not to have them move.

Some mold manufacturers recommend heating the mold up to 350-400F and cooling off 3 times before actually starting to cast bullets, this is supposed to help seat the pins.
 
easyrider604 said:
I have used plain Wheel weight lead in my Lee 124 gran 9mm TL Truncated Cone and they dropped at less than .356. These undersized bullets keyholed out of my P89 and 1911.

I added linotype to the WW melt, about 1 part lino to 6 parts WW, and the bullets dropped at .359

I then researched and found an article saying Lee molds are designed for use with Lyman #5 alloy, which contains 5% antimony which not only increases hardness but reduces bullet shrinkage as well.

Aside from changing my alloy, I also lowered melt temperature in my Lee 20 lb pot to a little lower than #6 on the thermostat. I used to pour at #7. Pouring at higher than required temps will result in higher shrinkage as well.

I will resize my 359 bullets to .357 and I am confident they will no longer keyhole.
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.002" is a lot of shrinkage for ww. Antimony levels in coww vary but are normally in the 3%-4% range. I usually see less than .001" shrinkage in 38/9mm bullets using 4% antimony. Hardness is related to antimony content and also to cooling times, air cooling produces a softer bullet than water dropping.

The scale on the Lee 20lb pot is a point of reference and isn't a thermostat, it's more like a timer. A thermostat would need a temp sensor in the pot and the Lee pots don't have a temp sensor in the pot. The setting will vary depending on several variables, most important of which are the speed you cast and the environmental temperature. In a cold garage in winter the setting needs to be higher than it will be in summer to maintain the same pot temperature. So the setting on the pot isn't directly related to an actual temperature like a thermostat would be.
 
jethunter said:
.002" is a lot of shrinkage for ww. Antimony levels in coww vary but are normally in the 3%-4% range. I usually see less than .001" shrinkage in 38/9mm bullets using 4% antimony. Hardness is related to antimony content and also to cooling times, air cooling produces a softer bullet than water dropping.

The scale on the Lee 20lb pot is a point of reference and isn't a thermostat, it's more like a timer. A thermostat would need a temp sensor in the pot and the Lee pots don't have a temp sensor in the pot. The setting will vary depending on several variables, most important of which are the speed you cast and the environmental temperature. In a cold garage in winter the setting needs to be higher than it will be in summer to maintain the same pot temperature. So the setting on the pot isn't directly related to an actual temperature like a thermostat would be.
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Actually without lab equipment, it would impossible to determine alloy composition. Online research say WW is only around 2%. Actual bullet diameter less than .356 bears this out. Many casters complain of bullets from this mold keyholing, which is most likely the result of undersized bullets.

Online research also revealed that Lee specifies Lyman #5 alloy. This alloy will shrink less than straight WW. I just roughly estimated the amount of Linotype to add to my WW. I also reduced casting temperature.

The temp control on the Lee pot I have is most probably a thermostat, although the sensor or probe may not be directly exposed to the lead melt. The sensor is most likely stuck on the outside of the pot, which is still a proper way of installing it. The numbers on the thermostat may not give temperature readings in degrees F or C, but they are point of reference as you mentioned, and will give relative indications of the lead melt temperature. That is good enough. When I cast at #7, the bullets came out a bit frosty. At around 5 3/4, the bullets were shiney. Lower melt temperature will produce less shrinkage.

The reason I set the temp to 7 was to speed up recovery of the melt temperature when I added ingots. I was rushing and now I realize rushing is not a good idea when casting. Better to go slow and do right, and produce properly filled out and correct sized bullets.

For my particular pot, I think the setting of 5 3/4 is close to correct, if not correct, temperature, whatever that may be in actual degrees.

The combination of lower temp setting and the alloy I have guesstimated, have both resulted in bullets in the .358-9 range, and hopefully will result in accurate bullets as well.

Since we lack sophisticated alloy testing lab equipment, we need to use whatever means we have to empirically arrive at the required diameter.

I still need to lube, size and reload, hopefully soon, so I can test if my theory is correct.
 
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easyrider604 said:
Actually without lab equipment, it would impossible to determine alloy composition. Online research say WW is only around 2%. Actual bullet diameter less than .356 bears this out. Many casters complain of bullets from this mold keyholing, which is most likely the result of undersized bullets.

Online research also revealed that Lee specifies Lyman #5 alloy. This alloy will shrink less than straight WW. I just roughly estimated the amount of Linotype to add to my WW. I also reduced casting temperature.

The temp control on the Lee pot I have is most probably a thermostat, although the sensor or probe may not be directly exposed to the lead melt. The sensor is most likely stuck on the outside of the pot, which is still a proper way of installing it. The numbers on the thermostat may not give temperature readings in degrees F or C, but they are point of reference as you mentioned, and will give relative indications of the lead melt temperature. That is good enough. When I cast at #7, the bullets came out a bit frosty. At around 5 3/4, the bullets were shiney. Lower melt temperature will produce less shrinkage.

The reason I set the temp to 7 was to speed up recovery of the melt temperature when I added ingots. I was rushing and now I realize rushing is not a good idea when casting. Better to go slow and do right, and produce properly filled out and correct sized bullets.

For my particular pot, I think the setting of 5 3/4 is close to correct, if not correct, temperature, whatever that may be in actual degrees.

The combination of lower temp setting and the alloy I have guesstimated, have both resulted in bullets in the .358-9 range, and hopefully will result in accurate bullets as well.

Since we lack sophisticated alloy testing lab equipment, we need to use whatever means we have to empirically arrive at the required diameter.

I still need to lube, size and reload, hopefully soon, so I can test if my theory is correct.
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I did have access to a lab to determine the chemical content of approximately a dozen different samples of melted ww, representing a touch over 16,000 lbs of reclaimed wheelweights over a span of about 5 years. Antimony values ranged from 1.5-4% with the average in the 2.5-3% range. There is a lot of variation and you won't know unless you get it tested. Generally I would not expect to get .002" of shrinkage in a 9mm bullet using 2% or 4% antimony. The temperature must have been very high.

I don't even bother looking at settings on lee pots except as a rough general guide. If you don't have a thermometer you're missing a lot of valuable information. I use either PID or an analogue pot thermometer, and I have a digital thermometer probe in some of my molds. The mold temperature is what is important, the pot temperature is important only relative to the mold temp.

What is the composition of Lyman #5 alloy? Lyman #2 alloy is 5% antimony, 5% tin, and 90% lead.

The other thing to remember about lee molds is that their quality control is spotty. Bullets sizes vary a lot because the cavity sizes vary a lot in Lee Lee molds.
 
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Ooops I meant Lyman #2. Its the Lyman alloy with the 5% antimony.

Yes, a thermometer is the only way to make sure temps are consistent, if we want to have the most consistent bullet diameters. Assuming our lead alloy is also consistent.

I'll look for a decent thermometer.

This 9mm 124 grain TL TC mold is the only problematic mold I have. .38/357 158 grain SWC, 40cal 180 grain TC, .45acp 230 grain RN all shoot fine with WW and relatively high melt temp.
 
easyrider604 said:
Ooops I meant Lyman #2. Its the Lyman alloy with the 5% antimony.

Yes, a thermometer is the only way to make sure temps are consistent, if we want to have the most consistent bullet diameters. Assuming our lead alloy is also consistent.

I'll look for a decent thermometer.

This 9mm 124 grain TL TC mold is the only problematic mold I have. .38/357 158 grain SWC, 40cal 180 grain TC, .45acp 230 grain RN all shoot fine with WW and relatively high melt temp.
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I thought maybe you meant #2 alloy. :)

Good move to get a thermometer, it's the only way to progress from guessing to seeing what's actually going on.

High temps are good for fill-out. As long as your temp is reasonably consistent and you get good fill, then the actual temp isn't so important. Generally - higher temps give more consistency in bullet weight. Lee molds would be a lot handier if they were a .001" bigger in most cases. Most of my molds are sized to be .002" -.003" oversize AFTER shrinkage is factored in.

The best way to get consistent alloy is to make large batches of alloy so you know the entire batch is homogenous and you won't have to mix a new alloy every time you cast. I buy a certified alloy straight from a distributor now, but I used to do a lot of melting of scrap and ww. Hardness would vary between batches occasionally, so I would mix ingots from various batches to maintain consistency.
 
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I think that I found the problem with oversize bullets. The only thing d ifferent in my setup was a new heavy duty press.;When I screwed the size die I didn't take into account the increased distanc to get the bullet thru the die, soooo I was pushing the first bullet thru the die with next one. Good thing it started to snow so it shut me down before I threw 100's of bullets. will try casting a few more tomorrow and will comment if this cures the problem.
 
Finally got a chance to cast a few more 45acp after adjusting the push-thru die. all is good the boolits are a gentle squeeze and are sizing down perfectly. Thought I was going crazy there for a minute.
 
I have a few older 2 cavity Lee molds which all seem fine.

But, with respect to all that has been reported her about the newer 6 cavity molds, the same problems are recounted on the U.S. shooting and cast bullet forums as well.
 
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