Lee Enfield head space question

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leeaspell

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Got a Lee Enfield, post LGR, never registered :D and went to shoot it today and noticed that it was all over the place and the bullets would keyhole, didnt realize this until after I thaught about why the holes seemed so big and jagged. So I looked at some of the brass and the shoulder was maybe 3/16 - 1/4 extended forward vs an unfired round. Im assuming this is a bad case of head spacing? Or is it a different issue
 
leeaspell said:
Got a Lee Enfield, post LGR, never registered :D and went to shoot it today and noticed that it was all over the place and the bullets would keyhole, didnt realize this until after I thaught about why the holes seemed so big and jagged. So I looked at some of the brass and the shoulder was maybe 3/16 - 1/4 extended forward vs an unfired round. Im assuming this is a bad case of head spacing? Or is it a different issue
Click to expand...

The case expansion is normal on many Lee Enfields. They were made with long chambers to function under battle conditions that included mud etc.


You might want to slug the bore...some of these rifles have .314 or even larger bore sizes and you'll need to load oversized bullets to get them to properly engage the rifling. Or is the barrel shot right out?
 
The .303 headspaces on the rim and chamber depth is somewhat variable among rifles. Excessive headspace wouldn't account for inaccurate shooting performance. If headspace was excessive you would most likely see some case separations. Keyholing is a good indication of an excessively worn barrel. The condition of the barrel crown/muzzle can also cause inaccurate shooting.

Headspace condition can be verified by the use of headspace gauges. Barrel wear is determined by passing a plug gauge of known diameter into or thru the bore. Military barrels were also prone to muzzle wear as a result of improper use of cleaning rods and pull thrus. Crown condition can be checked visually.

It would be advisable to have the barrel condition and headspace checked by someone with the appropriate gauges. Another cause of inaccurate shooting in a rifle is improper stock bedding. This can also be checked.
 
No the barrel is sharp and shinny. Thats why I wasnt sure what the issue is. There isnt even any pitting in it.


The stock however has some slop in it, maybe I have a few critters to work out of it. It may also be muzzle, its a No 5 with flash hider and I didnt really have good light to check it, actually I never taught to check it lol
 
I don't think you will see keyholing from a loose stock, but your groups could become more of a "pattern". Bore diameter vs. bullet diameter can do this as well as a badly worn muzzle or crown. I have a 1941 Long Branch that will shoot 1" groups with Remington UMC factory FMJ and it will keyhole Privi Partizan factory FMJ. I believe this is a case of bullet diameter issues. Until you solve the diameter issues you won't get groups regardless of how tight the stock is.
 
Head space

Slug the BBL.. I had the same prob. The larger dia. needs a larger bullet..313 or .314 also the type and amount of powder can cause some of your problems...
 
You might try the following before range testing again;
1. Make sure that the front guard screw is tight.
2. Give the barrel a good cleaning with a copper removing solvent as the bore may contain significant bullet jacket fouling (a lot of MILSURPs do).
3. Try a couple of other brands of ammo. Generally Lee Enfields will shoot most brands of 180 gr ammo acceptably well.

No 5 JCs aren't known for their accuracy. One in good shape should be capable of 2-3 inch groups without keyholing, all else being equal. A loose/poorly bedded stock will not permit accurate shooting, but it will not cause bullets to keyhole.
 
The Enfield rifle used cordite powder which was a early double base powder and burned hotter than more modern powders and you may have cordite bore erosion. Flat base bullets were used in Mk.7 ammunition because a flat base bullet when kicked in the seat of the pants will fill the bore diameter and make up for the worn bore.

Boat tail bullets do NOT like a worn bore and do not upset and fill the bore as a flat base bullet will. All of Prvi Partizan .303 ammunition is loaded with boat tail bullets and accuracy will be poor in a worn bore.

If you have factory flat base round nose 180 bullets keyholing then your barrel may be toast. A loose fitting fore stock will cause the shoots to be strung vertically.
 
You have good advice here; the problem you describe has nothing to do with headspace.

Clean her out, check that the stock is not broken or cracked. Stock should be tight around the action and to the front of the chamber. Forward of that, the barrel should float easily. A pressure-point at the front of the forestock can help a lot of rifles.

You NEED flat-base bullets for decent accuracy in anything with Enfield rifling. The Americans are obsessed with boat-tailed bullets because you get better range with them. What they refuse to understand is that not all of us are shooting regularly at 2100 yards. Generally, the cheaper lines of domestic ammunition are loaded with flat-base bullets because they are cheaper to make. They are also necessary for Enfield barrels, especially worn ones. Get some or have a friend load you up a box of shells with Sierra 180 Pro-Hunters; seat them to the OAL of a military round.

Try that and then get back to us.

If you are worried about possible headspace, get a pack of pony-tail ties from your local dollar store. They are 100 in a blister-pack for $1: little rubber elastics. Put one on the base of each new cartridge just before you chamber it, shoot them like that. Your brass now will be fire-formed to YOUR chamber: NO headspace problems.

Have fun.
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Think you guys are missing the boat here. :D Keyholing bullets are unstable, for some reason, period. Has nothing to do with headspace, bedding or loose stock. Went through this with a P14 once. Either bullets are undersize , bore is over size, or bullet weight not matched to rifling. For openers, I'd be miking the bullets to see if they really are what they're supposed to be and then slug the bore.

Grizz
 
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I have worked on a LOT of Lee-Enfields over the years and I know what they are like.

GRIZZLY is right in that the projectile is unstable. The QUESTION is WHY is it unstable and HOW may this be remedied?

Quickest and cheapest way to see if anything can be done (short of rebarreling) is to shoot the rifle with FLAT-BASE bullets. The flat base OBTURATES the bottom of the bullet, upsetting it into the rifling and preventing gas blow-by..... which otherwise will destabilise the bullet on exit from the bore.

Boat-tailed bullets are great in barrels with narrow lands, but NOT in Enfield barrels with their lands and grooves of equal width and very deep compared to most other rifles. This is WHY the British stayed with the flatbase bullet LONG after all the "progressive" guys went over to boat-tails.

ENFIELD RIFLING PREFERS A FLAT-BASED BULLET.

And there is nothing that you, or I, can do to change that.

The RIFLE is the boss. Try feeding it what it wants, THEN see if there is a problem.

Anything else is confusing and counterproductive.

And you might as well fix up any other problems so that your testing isn't a complete waste.
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So is there any pre rolled flat based? I tried winchestr 150 and 180. I tried the 150 today and they didnt seem to keyhole but still no pattern, all over the place, even at 25 yards
 
Your off-the-shelf Winchester generally is flatbased, as is the regular garden-variety Remington.

So you were using the right stuff and you have solved HALF of the problem.

Take the Magazine and Bolt out and undo the screws for the Forestock. Look at it CAREFULLY.

Can you see if the wood around the action is bearing SOLIDLY?

Is it bearing EVENLY?

Is the Barrel TOUCHING the wood anywhere more than 2 inches in front of the Chamber?

Has the Barrel been SLAPPING against the wood anywhere?

Is the wood CRACKED in front of the Magazine?

Is the wood CRACKED, SPLIT or MISSING ENTIRELY at the rear end of the Forestock where the Sear passes down and meets the TRIGGER?

Check it carefully.

Look for ALL of these problems.

If you find ONE, keep looking.

ONE can cause your problems, but it is entirely possible that you have more than just one. That happens when woodwork is old enough to file for the Old Age Pension and hasn't seen an Armourer in the last 50 years.

Have at it!
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