Lee Enfield Reloading Harris Universal Load Question

Mumbles Marble Mouth

Mumbles Marble Mouth

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So, I'm finally going to break down and go pick up a reloading kit on my next day off work. Been getting tired of not firing my Lee Enfields because the price of .303 is unreal. I've been told about the Harris Universal Load for Lee Enfields using 13 grains of Red Dot shotgun powder and 180gr cast lead bullets. The problem is, I'm not going to be casting my own bullets right away so I was wondering if using the same 13 grain load of Red Dot and Sierra 180gr .311 bullets would be ok for now and not have accuracy issues? Both of my Lee Enfields shoot 3/4" at 50 meters and 1.5" - 2" at 100 meters with factory Winchester SuperX. I've never reloaded before so I've got newbie questions about it but I have been watching lots of videos on reloading. Don't know anyone around here who reloads to show me step by step more personally but the Iraqvetern8888 videos do a good job explaining things.

All and any tips & reloading recipes for the Lee Enfield would be great.

My Lee Enfields are a No 1 MK III and a No 4 MK I
 
303 is the cartridge that I load for the most so I'll chime in here.

I shoot 13 grain red dot loads with cast bullets more often then not but I've yet to load a jacketed bullet with red dot. I personally will not shoot jacketed bullets as I fear getting a squib load where the bullet gets stuck in the bore. Just my oppininon, there's many who do load the Harris load with jacketed bullets, I'm just not one of them.:)

As for accuracy who knows?? Every gun is different and often what works in one rifle may not shoot well in another.

I'd say stick to published loads with common powders to start off with. Red dot loads can be very fun and safe but only if they are loaded correctly as there's way less room for error. For instance if you were say loading 303 with 38.5 grains of 4895 you could accidentally over charge the round by 10% (3.85 grains) and still be within the safe zone. But if you did that with a 13 grain red dot load (only 1.3 grains over charged) you may be in the a unsafe situation.

303 is a pretty forgiving cartridge as far as powders go so it's not super hard to get a good load with several different powders.

Imr4895, Varget and Rl15 seem to be the go to powders. I tend to stay at or close to min charges in my 303's and all of them shoot very well out to 300 yards.

Just to recap, I love shooting red dot loads but IMHO they're more suited to an experienced handloader as the repercussions of a slight over charge can be dangerous. If you do decide to load red dot as your first powder make sure you understand and can spot the signs of over pressure. Also make sure you buy a good quality scale so you can accurately weigh your charges.

Also read at least one reloading book, I read 2 twice before I even bought a press! Im glad I started with books as it totally chNged what type of press I bought. It will really help take the mystery out of handloading and it will teach you all of the basics.

Be safe and have fun!!

Steve
 
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DO NOT USE JACKETED BULLETS WITH THE 13 GRAIN RED DOT HARRIS LOAD!

This load was developed for CAST BULLETS for Military Rifles using a CAST LEAD BULLET of approximately the same weight as an original Military bullet. C.E. Harris was a Staff Writer for the "American Rifleman" and he did a lot of work with cast bullets. Several LEE bullet designs were Harris designed bullet moulds.

When reloading it is dangerous to substitute different components without working up a load, or knowing from experience how to work up loads.

RED DOT powder is a very fast burning powder, originally designed for loading shotgun shells. Small charges can be used for slower rifle and pistol cartridges IF you know what you are doing. A cast lead bullet is quite soft and with a lower tensile strength, will grip the rifling of a barrel easily, providing lower barrel pressure. A jacketed bullet is much harder, thus it is more difficult to fire down a barrel USING THE SAME CHARGES as a cast bullet as it gives more resistance to going down the barrel. To increase the powder charge would give a much higher pressure and the RED DOT powder is not of an appropriate burning rate for a jacketed bullet.

There is a very real danger of sticking a jacketed bullet in the bore of the rifle because of this increased resistance. This is bad in that it either has to take a lot of time and effort to clear this bullet out of the barrel, or if you do not notice this, it provides an obstruction in the barrel, and when you fire the next shot, it can burst the barrel and injure the shooter.

However, jacketed bullets can be reloaded easily and successfully by using an appropriate powder and powder charge. Lighter loads using 3031, 4895 and 4064 burning range powders can give excellent mid range hunting and target loads.

I have used the 13 Grain Red Dot for many years, even on 200 yard targets, and lots of Gophers, with the .303 British cartridge. I also use it for the .308, 30-06, 7mm and 8mm Mauser and the 6.5mm Swede. Several years ago, I recommended it to SMELLIE, and TINMAN204 got his information from us. It works very well, but sometimes you have to adjust it about 1/2 grain or so plus or minus, according to an individual rifle.
 
It's true that you can't simply substitute jacketed bullets for cast, but I can't agree with a simple ban against the use of pistol powders with jacketed bullets - they can and have been used safely. You must always be careful of overpressure at the high ends of loads and of bore obstruction on the lower end for both jacketed and cast. Concerning a 180 gr jacketed bullet in the 303 Brit, I have personally used the following, both of which resulted in an MV of 1500 fps +/- (with a 174 gr jacketed - close enough):

SR4759 - 18.0 grs
IMR4198 - 21.0 grs

Older Speer Load Manuals used to list reduced loads and those two loads were taken from them and worked well. I only did it to try it, as I cast and see no need to expend more costly jacketed bullets for plinking. I already know that SR4759 is a slow pistol powder, and IMR4198 is a fast rifle powder, but wait.....

As for Harris' "Universal Load" of 13.0 grs of Red Dot, it works well in a lot of cartridges with a lot of bullet weights and produces a wide range of pressures (all safe in military rifles) as a result, and we all seem to be fine with that. Quickload shows 34K psi with a 174 gr cast in the 303 Brit, so it's below the 40K psi limit for the Lee Enfield most people shoot it in. EDIT - Quickload is an estimator, but does it distinguish between cast and jacketed or just weight and length?

I see no reason why, with care, Red Dot (or Unique, or even Bullseye) couldn't be used with a 180 gr jacketed bullet in the 303 Brit. In fact this weekend (as long as the Wind Chill is above -20!) I will try four loads of it and report back: 10.0; 11.0; 12.0; and 13.0 grs (possibly). I already have a bunch of 173 gr cast over 13.0 grs of Red Dot loaded up, so I can even compare (but I'll have to use 174 gr Hornady RN as I don't have any 180 gr jacketed). If I go and no report results, it means that I disappeared in a red mist, and I trust that I will be remembered for the few good things I did.

I am for careful thought and preparation, and knowledge, not fear and ignorance. Whether I'm wrong or right, we'll all be the better for it.
 
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Well - The whole point of using cast bullets is to reduce cost and bore wear. Using the relatively expensive Sierras is quite a compromise. Seems to me there were some copper washed .310 bullets kicking around - Frontier? Use these with some of the rifle powders suggested above, and you're good to go.
 
Andy said:
It's true that you can't simply substitute jacketed bullets for cast, but I can't agree with a simple ban against the use of pistol powders with jacketed bullets - they can and have been used safely. You must always be careful of overpressure at the high ends of loads and of bore obstruction on the lower end for both jacketed and cast. Concerning a 180 gr jacketed bullet in the 303 Brit, I have personally used the following, both of which resulted in an MV of 1500 fps +/- (with a 174 gr jacketed - close enough):

SR4759 - 18.0 grs
IMR4198 - 21.0 grs

Older Speer Load Manuals used to list reduced loads and those two loads were taken from them and worked well. I only did it to try it, as I cast and see no need to expend more costly jacketed bullets for plinking. I already know that SR4759 is a slow pistol powder, and IMR4198 is a fast rifle powder, but wait.....

As for Harris' "Universal Load" of 13.0 grs of Red Dot, it works well in a lot of cartridges with a lot of bullet weights and produces a wide range of pressures (all safe in military rifles) as a result, and we all seem to be fine with that. Quickload shows 34K psi with a 174 gr cast in the 303 Brit, so it's below the 40K psi limit for the Lee Enfield most people shoot it in. EDIT - Quickload is an estimator, but does it distinguish between cast and jacketed or just weight and length?

I see no reason why, with care, Red Dot (or Unique, or even Bullseye) couldn't be used with a 180 gr jacketed bullet in the 303 Brit. In fact this weekend (as long as the Wind Chill is above -20!) I will try four loads of it and report back: 10.0; 11.0; 12.0; and 13.0 grs (possibly). I already have a bunch of 173 gr cast over 13.0 grs of Red Dot loaded up, so I can even compare (but I'll have to use 174 gr Hornady RN as I don't have any 180 gr jacketed). If I go and no report results, it means that I disappeared in a red mist, and I trust that I will be remembered for the few good things I did.

I am for careful thought and preparation, and knowledge, not fear and ignorance. Whether I'm wrong or right, we'll all be the better for it.
Click to expand...

Andy,

Although I agree in theory with what you have written there's several points that you may be overlooking.

First and foremost, in my experience I'd rather listen to my reloading program that I'll call BUFFLOAD. BUFFLOAD is an organic computer that has 50+ years of reloading experience gathered by doing tests, shooting and competing!!:) I think that what Buffdog is saying may be based in real world testing where he knows that pressures can spike quickly with a jacketed bullet and Red Dot.

You are also overlooking something crucial here. Your number of 34,000 psi is based on what temp?? Shooting these jacketed loads at -20 will substantially reduce the pressures compared to if you shot the same loads in +30 in summer. You need to test at a high temperature day as this is where you may have problems. I read one interesting article recently showing tests on a lot of commercial 30-06 ammo shot in a match. This ammo was pulled during a match in the 1930 because shooters where having problems with over pressure as the day got hotter. Tests were done on the ammo lot and it was heated to temps seen on the day of the match when the problems were experienced. They heated the ammo from 80 to 130 degrees just like the day it was fired. At 80 degrees the ammo tested at a safe level but once they raised the temps the pressures surged almost 8000 psi. Most of us shoot lots when it's hot so again I wouldn't instruct a new handloader to try such a load simply because will he or she understand the effect of temps on pressures?

Also the OP has zero reloading experience so instructing him to load a questionable load may be setting him up for failure or injury. Those of us that spend a lot of time testing ammo and reloading are way more capable of doing these kinds of things safely because we know what to look for. All of time in the reloading section there's thread after thread from new handloaders that post threads about what to all of us is clear signs of over pressure but to them it's just "the bolt is sticky". Last week there was a thread where the op was having extraction issues. We asked him to post his load and it was 2-4 grains over max because he started at the max charge and went up from there!!

I for one want new handloads to learn the basics before they step into the realm of advanced reloads.

Just my thoughts,
 
If we were to assume that everyone is a novice, then we could replace all load questions with a simple "look it up in a load book".

Temperature is always a factor, regardless of powder. What reloading manual states that their max loads are were tested at X degrees and are only safe to that temperature?

As for the statement "spikes quickly", I hear that frequently and I think I understand what it is supposed to mean, it just seems redundant. All powders have a "spike" and all "spike quickly" in the sense that all pressure curves have a peak that is reached very quickly, i.e. in milliseconds. Obviously loads that use fast powders like Red Dot have pressure that increases more with one additional grain (even possibly from just under max to just over max in one grain) than slower powders like H4350.

I never said that 13.0 grs of Red Dot with a jacketed bullet would develop less than 40 K psi in the 303 Brit, nor will I suggest that there isn't the potential for dangerously high pressures in any reloading exercise if due care is not followed. All I disagreed with was the notion only rifle powders should be used with jacketed bullets, shared what I have done in the past, and have agreed to run a few tests and share the results.

Novices beware and for the experienced, you're welcome to ignore as well.
 
@ANDY,

I never assumed the Op is a novice, he said that he zero reloading experience in his first post. So I made recommendations based on that statement alone. If the OP get 1 squib load from say the powder laying flat causing incomplete ignition will he know that it has occured?? Will he know when or if he should use magnum primers or fillers in such a load??

Case in point, my brother just started reloading this summer and was working on reduced jacketed loads for an '89 schmit Ruben that we got from several published books and also from seasoned veterans. We tested about 10 rounds with zero problems one day. On the 11th round it went bang but it sounded different to my ear. My brother chambered the next round and I made him stop. He looked at me like I was crazy but I insisted that he unchamber the round and check the bore.

Sure as S*** there was a bullet 8-10" down the pipe!!! If I was not present he would of fired the next round and surely may have blown the gun up. But he learned something that day which he will never forget.

I once had a severe overpressure round using red dot. It was not a double charge cause you can't fit 26 grains of red dot in a 303 case. But I left the bullets on my deck before firing then. They only sat there for 15-20 mins but the sun was very hot that day. I had zero idea at that point the affects of temp on pressures. I'm glad a several failure didn't occur and thank god the round was fired in my Ross and not in a lee enfield as I think the results would have been me getting hurt.

This kind of thing can happen and the OP stated that they don't have a reloading mentor or even know anybody who reloads. So to me posting info that it "may" be alright is just plain reckless!! IMHO a reloader needs practice and experience before attempting reduced charges using fast powder cause the chances of things going wrong are greatly increased with such loads.

And once again, I shoot more red dot loads then anything but I'm glad I loaded hundreds or even thousands of regular loads before I started my red dot loading career.

So on that note we must agree to disagree as we both clearly have reloading experience and an understanding of pressures etc.

Steve
 
Here's a quote from Ed Harris, the "father" of "The Load". The highlights are mine:

"1. The case must be LARGER than the .30-40 Krag, and have a normal working pressure greater than 40,000 psi. The No. 4 Enfield in .303 Brit is OK, the 1896 Krag is not!

2. The rifle must be of MODERN (post 1898 design, suitable for smokeless powder, with a bore size of .30 cal. or larger.

3. The bullet weight must be within the NORMAL range for the given cartridge.

4. Inert fillers such as Dacron, kapok or are NOT RECOMMENDED! (Nor are they necessary).

Within these restrictions now engraved in stone, "The Load" works! The bullet may be either jacketed or cast. Gaschecked cast bullets required in the .30 cals., otherwise you will get leading, but plainbased ones work fine in the 8mm Mauser or larger."

So, in the opinion of Ed Harris, 13 grs of Red Dot with a jacketed bullet weighing 180 grs (or more) would be just fine. This seems to confirm my own thoughts.
 
"...any tips..." Slug your barrel before you do anything else. Lee-Enfield barrels can measure between .311" and .315" and still be considered ok. Problem is the comercial bullets are .311" or .312".
There really is no such thing as a 'Universal Load' for anything. Every rifle will shoot every load differently. So you have to work up the load for your rifle. Even with cast bullets.
Do not use cast bullets with jacketed data. Jacketed bullets get driven faster and loads for 'em will cause leading with cast bullets. Follow your manual religiously and you'll be fine.
 
I have not tried "THE LOAD" with red dot, as it's always sold out locally, but I have been using Trail Boss for reduced loads in a number of cases from 7.62x39 to 9.3x62.

For a very light load in 303 British, I've found 8 grains of TB topped with a Lee 185gr cast, GC bullet, is great for shorter ranges, and the report is mild enough that my five year old son can shoot clay pidgeons with it at 25 meters. I use the same 8 grains in .308 win, topped with Lee 200gr GC bullet to the same effect. I suspect it would be a great small game load for anyone hunting big game with full powered loads who doesn't want to lug around a .22 all the time.
 
I've used these loads with great success on small game and I regulary shoot sub MOA groups with red dot/ cast loads.

Still though my recommendations were solely given based on the loading experience of the OP.
 
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What we have here is a NOVICE reloader who knows very little about handloading ammunition without someone to guide and mentor him. Any answers to his question have to be based on this premise, and MUST be on the side of caution both for his own safety and the possible damages to his firearm.

C.E. Harris based his information on the RCBS Cast Bullet Handbook and the LYMAN Cast Bullet Handbook. He was looking for an alternative to full power loads to use at closer ranges for practice, bolt manipulation, and less cost. He experimented with Red Dot because of it's bulk and weight, where a double charge would be immediately noticed if a double charge was thrown. In his article in the "Gun Digest", he called it "The Load."

Harris did use both cast and jacketed bullets with this load. Personally, I have loaded 123 grain .311 bulk bullets intended for the 7.62x39 Russian with this load, and did fairly well on targets under 200 yards. However, this load is about 50 grains lighter than a Mark 7 Ball load, and I was always aware of anything out of the ordinary when I was firing them.

But, what I also had was a lot of years of shooting and reloading experience. Here we have a person who has very little experience and no mater what someone has used, tried, concocted, (and got away with,) the answers to the O.P. has to reflect his reloading experience and knowledge.
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I went out shooting today and I have some loads for you, all with Red Dot and shot from the same gun, a Lee Enfield No 4. The ambient temp was about -10 C, but I shot from a heated shelter that would have been about +5 C:


178 gr Cast Gas Checked bullet, 2.725" OAL

13.0 grs Red Dot, avg 1585 fps


174 gr Jacketed Hornady RN, 3.025" OAL

10.0 grs Red Dot, 950 fps
11.0 grs Red Dot, 1100 fps
12.0 grs Red Dot, 1250 fps
13.0 grs Red Dot, 1350 fps

This is pretty much what I expected. The jacketed was quite a bit slower than the cast, but two factors explain that: jacketed bullets exhibit more friction than cast in the bore; and the jacketed bullet was loaded at a much longer OAL, which increases case capacity and lowers pressure.
 
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