Lee Enfield rifle - B.S.A. and M Co., dated 1896 - looking for information

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Guy28

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Hello CGN’ers,

My father has an old rifle that he bought several years ago. We are searching for a bit of history on this rifle. I know there are a few fans of this rifle on this site and we hope to have some additional information about it.

I created a google photo album and created a link to that album. Hope this works for you guys and that you’ll like them. Here’s the link for you to see the photos: https://photos.app.goo.gl/wknusGSpuz5f55ME9

Here is what we currently know:
• Lee Enfield rifle (B.S.A. & M Co.) dated 1896
• “B.S.A Co.” stands for Birmingham Small Arms Company
• .303 British caliber
• Bolt Action
• Full Wood Military Rifle
• Long barrel
• Includes barrel sights, side receiver peep sight
• Missing the cleaning rod and the bayonet

Here are some questions we ask ourselves:
• What does “VP ..” represent above “B.S.A. & M Co. ”?
• In “B.S.A. & M Co. ", what does the "M" represent? Is it Metford?
• "L.E" below "1896" means "Lee Enfield"? If not, what else?
• "I." below "L.E" means Model 1 or Mark 1?
• In this state, how much can it be worth in your opinion?
• Can we use today’s .303 cartridge into this rifle?

All added information will be appreciated. Looking forward for your comments.
Thank you in advance.
 
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You'll get the real pros chiming in soon, but it's not "VP" it's "VR" for Victoria Regina (Victoria the Queen). B.S.A. & M. Co. stands for Birmingham Small Arms & Metals Co. I believe it's still safe to shoot, barring any mechanical defects, and the last one I saw in that condition went for $1,500. hereabouts. Nice score!
 
as long as its in decent condition it should be good to shoot I also have a MLE dated 1896 mine is a sporter though. I have shot modern S&B ammo in it but the tip of the firing pin was rough and piercing primers nothing an Arkansas stone couldn't take care of.

btw this thread belongs in milsurps as its not technically an antique
 
You have a very nice Magazine Lee Enfield MK I that has seen some use but is intact. The VP is actually a Queen Crown over a VR, this is the royal stamp.

Is there a M.D. stamp on the right side of the butt stock? That would indicate this gun was purchased by the Militia Department of Canada. Does it have any unit markings on the top of the brass butt plate or on the butt stock itself?

The cleaning rods were removed by the late 1890's so it is not unusual to see these guns without them.
 
I'm a newbie here so I'm learning. I'm surprised that an 1896 rifle is not an antique ;) but I'll probably unsderstand if you can tell me what "milsurps" stands for.
Thank you antiguy and LawrenceN

p.s. I wanted to post images via links to Postimage website but I got the following message : **Image and video linking functions will be enabled after you have contributed more to the forum**
 
Incurable Collectoer said:
Is there a M.D. stamp on the right side of the butt stock? That would indicate this gun was purchased by the Militia Department of Canada. Does it have any unit markings on the top of the brass butt plate or on the butt stock itself?
Click to expand...

I don't have the rifle with me right now but will get those information for you ASAP and will let you know.
I'm also very curious to know more about it!
Thank you.
 
Guy28 said:
I'm a newbie here so I'm learning. I'm surprised that an 1896 rifle is not an antique ;) but I'll probably unsderstand if you can tell me what "milsurps" stands for.
Thank you antiguy and LawrenceN

p.s. I wanted to post images via links to Postimage website but I got the following message : **Image and video linking functions will be enabled after you have contributed more to the forum**
Click to expand...

its not legally an antique because the minimum bore diameter is smaller than .328" and its fed by a magazine. if the bore is anything like the one I have the throat is really worn from cordite ammo id stay away from S&B in these old girls its loaded really hot flattens the primers mine is mostly going to see reloads with cast bullets or paper patch bullets.
 
Guy28 said:
I'm a newbie here so I'm learning. I'm surprised that an 1896 rifle is not an antique ;) but I'll probably unsderstand if you can tell me what "milsurps" stands for.
Thank you antiguy and LawrenceN

p.s. I wanted to post images via links to Postimage website but I got the following message : **Image and video linking functions will be enabled after you have contributed more to the forum**
Click to expand...

Milsurps = Military Surplus

Post some more, then you can add photo links. As the message you received suggests.
 
TrevorJ said:
Milsurps = Military Surplus

Post some more, then you can add photo links. As the message you received suggests.
Click to expand...

Ok understood. Do you guys prefer that I create a new post in Milsurps or should I surf a while here in "Blackpowder & Antiques"? Is there a way for us to transfer a post from one forum to another quickly?

to TrevorJ: How many posts will I have to do to be able to posts images you think?
 
Incurable Collectoer said:
Is there a M.D. stamp on the right side of the butt stock? That would indicate this gun was purchased by the Militia Department of Canada. Does it have any unit markings on the top of the brass butt plate or on the butt stock itself.
Click to expand...

We've found the M.D. stamp on the right side of the butt stock but didn't find the unit markings yet.
 
Guy28 said:
We've found the M.D. stamp on the right side of the butt stock but didn't find the unit markings yet.
Click to expand...



Ok, so this definitely means that your rifle was a Canadian Militia gun. The Canadian government ordered 40,000 rifles starting in 1895 but by the time the order went through most of the guns are from the 1896 year of production as your gun is.

Some of these had unit markings, two sets of numbers stamped one over the other or a combination of numbers and letters. it could be either on the thin tang of the butt plate or near the M.D. stamp.

When the Canadian Volunteers shipped off to South Africa to help the British fight against the Boers in the South African War or also called the Boer War they carried these rifles with them. Some of these guns were marked with the unit names but also the individual trooper's number. I have been able to find the man that carried a similar rifle that was marked to the CMR the Squadron and the individual trooper number that served in South Africa.
 
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ok, so far, my father saw a stamp with a "10" inside it under the "M.D." mark. The other number he noticed was a clear "1" under the stamp. Over the "1", there's an "I.". We can see it on the screenshot I added in the pictures in the following album. https://photos.app.goo.gl/wknusGSpuz5f55ME9

Actually, it's the last photo of the album and you will see 3 red squares in it. It's not all crystal clear but we can really see the number "1". Would it be possible that this rifle was number one of the guns ordered by the Canadian government in 1895-1896? Your thoughts?

Later this week, I will manage to go back at my father's house to take another picture of those inscriptions and post it back to you guys.
 
I looked at the photo of the markings and was not able to make much out. The top square is the M.D. stamp that is clear. The second square seems to have what looks like an upside down 10. On the left side but on the right side it looks like the roundel. Which is a round stamp that should have the letters BSA (the Queen's Crown) M & Co Birmingham bordering an inner circle that has WD in it. Right under that should be the Model or Mark stamp of I for MKI this shows up in the bottom square and it looks like under the I is a 1. However I am not sure, I can't make it out clearly. You could put some thing like talcum powder over the stamp it might help to bring out the stamps better and give a much clearer idea of what they are.
 
Incurable Collectoer said:
I looked at the photo of the markings and was not able to make much out. ... You could put some thing like talcum powder over the stamp it might help to bring out the stamps better and give a much clearer idea of what they are.
Click to expand...

I didn't have to put powder over the stamps to see them better. I just played with the lights. Therefore, I added three new photos in the Google photo album in which 2 of those photos will give you a clear image of the stamps; 1-"M.& D", 2-"B.S.A. & M Co. -- Birmingham", 3-"I." and 4-"1".
I believe that inside the #2-"B.S.A. & M Co. -- Birmingham" stamp, in the middle, we can see an "M D". Is that right or would it be a "10" (ten) ?
Also, I'm wondering what another stamp means. It looks like a shell to me... You will find it at 10 o'clock on the left side of the "B.S.A. & M Co. -- Birmingham" stamp.

Looking forward to your comments.
 
Now the stamps are much clearer. So the BSA roundel might look like it has MD in the inner circle but I am pretty sure it is WD. It is the standard stamp. To the left of the BSA roundel is a C with a broad arrow inside it. If I recall that stamp is more a WW1 era Canadian government ownership stamp. So your Long Lee might have been one of the few that were still in stores during WW1 and it was probably brought out of retirement to serve in WW1. I have seen a photo of a Long Lee with a CEF stamp for the Canadian Expeditionary Force of WW1.
Under the MK stamp I which is right under the BSA roundel is the number 1. Again I am not totally sure but this might be a re-inspection stamp. I have seen Martini Henry rifles with a number 2 stamped under the Mark stamp to indicate that they were no longer good enough to be first issue guns. So I assume your Long Lee passed the re-inspection. This might have been when it was given the C broad arrow stamp.
 
Very cool that your rifle still has the auxiliary long range volley sights (front and rear). The marking on that front sight should represent hundreds of yards. At longish ranges, that front arm is down below the stock line - rifle at an amazing upward angle. Of course, not for precision fire - get 10 or 20 guys, all set sights the same and each let rip 5 or 10 rounds at rapid fire - and an acre or two down range would get to be a place not to be!
 
Incurable Collectoer said:
Now the stamps are much clearer. So the BSA roundel might look like it has MD in the inner circle but I am pretty sure it is WD. It is the standard stamp. To the left of the BSA roundel is a C with a broad arrow inside it. If I recall that stamp is more a WW1 era Canadian government ownership stamp. So your Long Lee might have been one of the few that were still in stores during WW1 and it was probably brought out of retirement to serve in WW1. I have seen a photo of a Long Lee with a CEF stamp for the Canadian Expeditionary Force of WW1.
Under the MK stamp I which is right under the BSA roundel is the number 1. Again I am not totally sure but this might be a re-inspection stamp. I have seen Martini Henry rifles with a number 2 stamped under the Mark stamp to indicate that they were no longer good enough to be first issue guns. So I assume your Long Lee passed the re-inspection. This might have been when it was given the C broad arrow stamp.
Click to expand...

Very interesting history information Incurable Collectoer. Much appreciated!

One more question for you; What does the "WD", inside the BSA roundel, represent ?

Thanks!
 
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Potashminer said:
Very cool that your rifle still has the auxiliary long range volley sights (front and rear). The marking on that front sight should represent hundreds of yards. At longish ranges, that front arm is down below the stock line - rifle at an amazing upward angle. Of course, not for precision fire - get 10 or 20 guys, all set sights the same and each let rip 5 or 10 rounds at rapid fire - and an acre or two down range would get to be a place not to be!
Click to expand...

Agreed Potashminer. You certainly did not want to be the guys receiving those bullets over your heads. It's like receiving a bunch of arrows (100-200+) at the same place. You don't want to be there when that happens...
 
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