Lee speed records
- Thread starter JTF#
- Start date
Lee Speed rifles were made by BSA.
If it is an LSA, it probably ain't a Lee Speed, although it might have been modified to Lee Speed sporter style.
If it is an LSA, it probably ain't a Lee Speed, although it might have been modified to Lee Speed sporter style.
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Well i'll be....I stand corrected!
I assumed wrong, very wrong, thinking that you had a Lee Speed sporter. You have what was once a martial style arm.
Sure enough, LSA made. I just learned something. I have never seen one made by LSA with patent acknowledgements. Government contract ones, yes, commercial ones like this, no. They were a private company but were allowed to manufacture under govt licence sell to the public like BSA. So they could make whatever they wanted to sell.
Magazine Lee Metford originally in Mk.II* configuration. It isn't a No.1, never was.
There is a member on this board who has made a study of the Lee Speed sporters. He may have some input.
However, this one being marked II* ( a military pattern) would likely have been in full military trim.
So acknowledging Lee and Speed's patents is curious. The patent ran out in 1914 (I believe) and the legal need to acknowledge patent rights ran out too.
This pegs it post 1892 (Mk.II MLM) and possibly post 1895 (mk.II*) and pre 1914 (omission of patent markings).
So circa 1895-1914. Well worth more research. More pics please.
s
((A little correction here. Lee & Speed patents ran out in 1914 and no longer had to be marked.))
I assumed wrong, very wrong, thinking that you had a Lee Speed sporter. You have what was once a martial style arm.
Sure enough, LSA made. I just learned something. I have never seen one made by LSA with patent acknowledgements. Government contract ones, yes, commercial ones like this, no. They were a private company but were allowed to manufacture under govt licence sell to the public like BSA. So they could make whatever they wanted to sell.
Magazine Lee Metford originally in Mk.II* configuration. It isn't a No.1, never was.
There is a member on this board who has made a study of the Lee Speed sporters. He may have some input.
However, this one being marked II* ( a military pattern) would likely have been in full military trim.
So acknowledging Lee and Speed's patents is curious. The patent ran out in 1914 (I believe) and the legal need to acknowledge patent rights ran out too.
This pegs it post 1892 (Mk.II MLM) and possibly post 1895 (mk.II*) and pre 1914 (omission of patent markings).
So circa 1895-1914. Well worth more research. More pics please.
s
((A little correction here. Lee & Speed patents ran out in 1914 and no longer had to be marked.))
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Commercial Lee Enfield rifles including those marked with Speed Patent were only made by two companies in the UK. BSA and LSA or London Small Arms.
Any rifle marked Holland & Holland, Purdey, Westley Richards or W.W. Greener were all retailed by these gun making firms, not manufactured by them. The later company did produce parts for the Lee Enfield under military contract in the Great War, but not complete rifles.
Records for BSA are held by Warwick University, but do not appear to hold any sales ledgers of commercial rifle sales. The records for London Small Arms Co are with an institution in Scotland. I don’t know anyone who has looked at these records but again it is unlikely they will have any detailed records. I hope to look at these records myself in a couple of months on my next trip to Blighty.
There is a Facebook page run by an enthusiast for London small Arms Co - https://www.facebook...rmsCoLtdhistory
An Admiralty history of technical problems published in 1920, has a list of miscellaneous small arms purchased in America and from the British 'trade', which includes the following entry.
303-inch L.E. Sporting Rifles. 970 bought from the trade in March 1915, issued to miscellaneous craft.
Small quantities of Lee Enfield’s which were in stock were purchased by the War Office early in the War one of which was a purchase of 17 rifles from LSA Co. This was reported in the official History of the Ministry of Munitions published after the War, the author missed a second small purchase from the LAC at around the same time, which show up in contract records which was for around 13 or 15 rifles (file not to hand). This goes to show that the researcher cannot take on face value even official history’s without checking the source material.
A book on commercial Lee Enfield’s including "Lee Speeds" is being prepared, hopefully we will see it next year.
There is a sub-forum on Lee Speed rifles on the Nitro Express Forum which is worth checking out.
Does your rifle have any maker or retailer markings?
Regards
AlanD
Any rifle marked Holland & Holland, Purdey, Westley Richards or W.W. Greener were all retailed by these gun making firms, not manufactured by them. The later company did produce parts for the Lee Enfield under military contract in the Great War, but not complete rifles.
Records for BSA are held by Warwick University, but do not appear to hold any sales ledgers of commercial rifle sales. The records for London Small Arms Co are with an institution in Scotland. I don’t know anyone who has looked at these records but again it is unlikely they will have any detailed records. I hope to look at these records myself in a couple of months on my next trip to Blighty.
There is a Facebook page run by an enthusiast for London small Arms Co - https://www.facebook...rmsCoLtdhistory
An Admiralty history of technical problems published in 1920, has a list of miscellaneous small arms purchased in America and from the British 'trade', which includes the following entry.
303-inch L.E. Sporting Rifles. 970 bought from the trade in March 1915, issued to miscellaneous craft.
Small quantities of Lee Enfield’s which were in stock were purchased by the War Office early in the War one of which was a purchase of 17 rifles from LSA Co. This was reported in the official History of the Ministry of Munitions published after the War, the author missed a second small purchase from the LAC at around the same time, which show up in contract records which was for around 13 or 15 rifles (file not to hand). This goes to show that the researcher cannot take on face value even official history’s without checking the source material.
A book on commercial Lee Enfield’s including "Lee Speeds" is being prepared, hopefully we will see it next year.
There is a sub-forum on Lee Speed rifles on the Nitro Express Forum which is worth checking out.
Does your rifle have any maker or retailer markings?
Regards
AlanD
here is pics of what the gun looks like right now. on the second photo the stock looks almost black but its not its just i lost the light.
i'd be very interested in that book when it comes out. you will have to make a new post when it does.
i am going to take the forend off the gun later and see if there is any markings under it..
i'd be very interested in that book when it comes out. you will have to make a new post when it does.
i am going to take the forend off the gun later and see if there is any markings under it..
here is pics of the other markings. all that is on the gun is these markings. i did find a cartouche under the clear coat. does anyone know what it is? i cant make it out. is there a way i could see it better but without destroying it?
