Let's talk 7.62x39 AR's

Clobbersauras

Clobbersauras

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Lets talk 7.62x39 AR's!

I'm hoping people that own them or have some specific knowledge of the platform will give their honest opinion. There's not many options out there and some issues:

1) Magazine Reliability. I know the now defunct C-Products used to make some and there is one or two more manufacturers out there. I believe Wolverine Supplies has some factory seconds from Armalite. I'm not really interested in the LAR mags. Who uses what?

2) I've read that bolt lugs tend to crack with the 7.62x39? What bolts are available? I'd be wanting to buy a spare as well. Any other reliability issues?
I'm sure some playing around with the buffer/spring assembly would be needed to get it to run properly, especially if I use my current lower.

3) I generally like DI rifles but do DI rifles do well with corrosive ammo? I clean my rifles after every session but I'm especially worried about the gas tube, as it's difficult to clean. I would probably pay special attention to the camber after each session with a DI gun as well.

4) XCR? I know they make some SBR models in 7.62x39, and I have a lot of Loctite, so this may be an option. :D

Here's what I want:
-A rifle (or upper) in 7.62x39
-10" or "12 barrel
-Full length FF hand-guard.
- Heavy barrel, chromed or isonited . Ideally it could be threaded for 858/58 muzzle devices, if I can find a crush washer/shim kit/peel washer/ jam nut that would work (pipe dream, I know).
- I'd like to stick with an option that uses AR mags, I've seen the AK conversions and it's just too much of a change in manual of arms for me.

Options:
1) PWS Diablo MK107. It's only a 7" barrel though and I'd prefer a 10" or 12"
2) Dlask - I think I read on this board that Dlask made a customer a 7.62x39 rifle?
3) Other options?
 
Non-corrosive ammo seems to getting more and more common in Canada. After having owned a VZ58 for a while, I'd never go back to corrosive again. It's just not worth the headache involved. IMHO, any rifle should be cleaned with an oily rag alone. Not boiling water, soap, a sponge/rag, more boiling water, dried off, then cleaned again with an oily rag.
 
cancer said:
Non-corrosive ammo seems to getting more and more common in Canada. After having owned a VZ58 for a while, I'd never go back to corrosive again. It's just not worth the headache involved. IMHO, any rifle should be cleaned with an oily rag alone. Not boiling water, soap, a sponge/rag, more boiling water, dried off, then cleaned again with an oily rag.
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I have no issues using corrosive ammo. I used to go through the windex BS with my VZ's and SKS's until I found G96.
images

Now I just clean it as I would any of my other rifles / pistols. I've used it for years and have no corrosion, even on muzzle devices which are well known for corrosion, especially with surplus corrosive ammo. I clean my guns after every range session so not an issue. I spray it on, let it sit for a few minutes and clean normally. It's a lubricant as well and I just spray a little on the rails and wear points. It's the only thing I use. I do spend a little more time brushing the chamber on my VZ but that's just preventative to limit any build up of that crap they use to coat the cases.

ottawaguy said:
I thought the ar platform in that caliber was a bit temperamental with feeding that shoulder angle.
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Yep, that's why good mags are key and that's why you see AK mag conversions.
 
I have a PWS Diablo in 7.62x39. It is a really cool little gun, but I have never shot an AR in 7.62x39 that would touch a 5.56 for reliability. Not even close! If you don't mind the odd hangup I think the PWS is the best of the bunch, definitely the best of the few that I have shot. As far as mags go I got some 5/30 mags from Marstar that work good, not sure what brand they are. I also run the 10 round XCR mags and have had good luck with them as well if you shorten the spring in them just a wee bit so the 10th round loads and feeds OK. If not not for the cost of 7.62x39 shells I would not consider putting it in an AR, but would run 6.8 SPC all the way.

I would like to try some of the conversions for the AK mags. If they worked well that would be my preference.
 
IMHO, ARs are not designed for 7.62x39. stick to 5.56, .308, 6.8, or 300 blackout. if you want a black rifle in 7.62, get an XCR micro. (loctite issues have been fixed on the newer models).
 
8 ball said:
I have a PWS Diablo in 7.62x39. It is a really cool little gun, but I have never shot an AR in 7.62x39 that would touch a 5.56 for reliability. Not even close! If you don't mind the odd hangup I think the PWS is the best of the bunch, definitely the best of the few that I have shot. As far as mags go I got some 5/30 mags from Marstar that work good, not sure what brand they are. I also run the 10 round XCR mags and have had good luck with them as well if you shorten the spring in them just a wee bit so the 10th round loads and feeds OK. If not not for the cost of 7.62x39 shells I would not consider putting it in an AR, but would run 6.8 SPC all the way.

I would like to try some of the conversions for the AK mags. If they worked well that would be my preference.
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What issues were you having? FTE, FTF?
 
My son had the TNW 7.62x39 upper and it had all kinds of feed/jam issues with the cheapy steel cased ammo (I believe the lacquered kind). He ended up selling it off and moving back to 5.56/.223 and used his SKS for the rest of the cheapy ammo. Having seen his frustration (and working on that upper) I can't recommend it.
 
Most of the #####ing people have with 7.62X39 in AR platform is self inflicted...think about it. People buy a 7.62X39 upper to shoot cheap ass crap ammo. No kidding you can have issues

Steel Case 7.62X39 Ammo- this has been discussed a zillion times on the net. Its not the laquer build up, but rather the 7.62X39 steel case does not seal the chamber walls nearly as much as brass. Result is lots of blow by that makes its way between the chamber wall and case

See pic below. In my experience this happens after 200+ rounds of the Wolf ammo ( wimpier than the old Norinco )

The stuff just falls off in flakes. Sometimes an extracted case pulls a chunk off, extreme case it will result in stuck case

Very easy to clean off with a chamber brush

wolf-8.jpg


wolf-6.jpg


On one ocassion the gun was starting to short stroke more and more until I was having failure to extract. A hard tug on charging handle would pull it free. Like a dumbass I kept pumping at least 25 more rounds. At that point ?i couldn't pull the charging handle back . Had to tap out the case with a rod when I got home

Bolt
Problem with 7.62X39 bolts is many of them are made from opened up ok quality 5.56 bolts. I have not broken a bolt in 3000 rounds but I ended up buying the end all of 7.62X39 bolts...the LMT Ehanced . Been running that for 5000+ rounds with no problem. Just buy that bolt and be done with it

Keep in mind that when guys were making 6.5Grendels with 7.62X39 bolts ( not same headspace BTW ) the were experiencing bolt failures. This is why Bill Alexander designed / licenced so all true 6.5 Grendels use his bolts, which according to him are made of better steel ( can't remember ASTM designation )

FTF with Wolf and other com block new production

What the problem is primer is recessed more than typical 5.56 . Result is periodic light primer strike.

3 possible solutions- machine .010 or more of tail of of bolt ( I wouldn't do this but its the ghetto way )
- machine shoulder of firing pin to allow for further firing pin protrusion ( I have lathe so it was a 1 min job )
- heavier hammer spring

Only issue is you have a real deep primer strike on domestic / handload 7.62X39.

The Czech and Norinco seem ok with this


Magazines
No problem feeding 5 rounds from 5 round Grendel Mag I have.

Dirty carrier
What do you expect...you are shooting cheap crappy ammo. I loaded 400 rounds of 7.62X39 Win brass I had lying around with BL-C(2) . Huge difference in cleanliness compared to surplus crap

I eventually went with a Adam Arms piston kit since I had it sitting in a box

OVerall I have been really happy. Its the gun have my non gun buddies shoot at the range because ammo is inexpensive

My only issue is there is a huge difference in performance between all the surplus and new production com bloc ( like Wolf ) ammo. The one that runs the best for my upper is actually some ancient Norinco I have been hording

Here are some pics of upper

762X39AR2of4.jpg


Bottom line, I would only buy / build one if you already have 5.56 and want something differnt that is cheap to shoot. I have not shot my SKS since I built this upper.

You may just want to wait for the RRA 7.62X39 to make its way here
 
Clobbersauras said:
What issues were you having? FTE, FTF?
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Mostly FTE. Seems that lots of the 7.62x39 out there have wildly different pressure curves and peaks. The most reliable load that I have found for my PWS is a Russian? non corrosive steel cased load. I will look it up and see what the brand is, can't remember off the top of my head.

Found it; it's MFS. Huge fireball, seems like nothing for flash retardant, but they cycle really well. Seems to be a fairly hot load.
 
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Here are some of my observations:

- heavy hammer spring is a must, those military primer are nasty as hell, without it you are looking at a 40-50% light primer strike rate.

- The AR style bolt lugs combine with the AR pattern magazine just not idea for 7.62x39, using both short 5 round pinned and 10 round pistol mags FTF is just a matter of time, haven't tried any of those 5/30 mags yet, however I used the same mags with my XCR's where the bolt lugs are way beefier and they feeds just fine.

-Shooting corrosive through DI system is a non-issue, gas tube are stainless steel, cheap and easy to change. also gas port in the barrel should be open up a little bit more than a standard AR port, to allow for more extraction force.
 
8 ball said:
Mostly FTE. Seems that lots of the 7.62x39 out there have wildly different pressure curves and peaks. The most reliable load that I have found for my PWS is a Russian? non corrosive steel cased load. I will look it up and see what the brand is, can't remember off the top of my head.

Found it; it's MFS. Huge fireball, seems like nothing for flash retardant, but they cycle really well. Seems to be a fairly hot load.
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Thanks for the response. It seems that with most rifle you have to mess around with loads and or buffers and stick with a brand of ammo it likes.

The adjustable gas system on the XCR is looking good to me right now.
 
Clobbersauras said:
Thanks for the response. It seems that with most rifle you have to mess around with loads and or buffers and stick with a brand of ammo it likes.

The adjustable gas system on the XCR is looking good to me right now.
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PM me if you want to try out my XCR or AR, we can meet up at ABBY for some #### and giggles :)
 
Clobbersauras said:
^^Excellent post, thank you. What upper and barrel are you using?
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The Upper is a Larue billet and barrel is a DPMS with Carbine length gas port

The brake is a reamed out PRI ...can you believe that DPMS makes these barrels with a 1/2 -28 threads !!

Forend is DD 9.5 FSP light that just fits the Adam Arms piston system perfectly

Only problem with the upper is the EOTECH has trouble with the heavier recoil ( the battery contacts ) . I have since put an aimpoint on there
 
Donster 125 said:
I was interested in the PWS. Would I be better off with an 858?
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I think the PWS is one of the best AR systems out there for the 7.62x39. However you are still mixing those two things that don't really go together very well. The AR platform, and the 7.62x39 cartridge. I have a 12.5 inch PWS in 5.56mm and I would trust it with my life. It has run FLAWLESSLY for me. I can't say the same for the same gun in 7.62x39 even though I do like it. If I really wanted more than the 5.56 has to offer for a firearm that I was carrying in harms way, in the AR platform, I would look long and hard at the 6.8SPC or the 300BLK. For a range toy (and what else do we really have up here) the 7.62x39 can make sense, simply because of the cost of shells. Look at the bright side. You can do clearance drills while you are plinking! If I am making it sound like the AR in 7.62x39 can't be made to run reasonably well, that is not what I am trying to say. I am saying it won't typically run as well as a 5.56. I can run 2000 rounds of 223 through a Norinco AR in an afternoon without a single stoppage. I can't even begin to come close to that kind of reliability with any AR in 7.62x39 that I have tried. I would expect to have at least 8-10 failures of some sort in the same number of rounds with the 7.62. With some guns and some shells I would expect way more problems than that even. Hope this helps.
 
Buy a RRA Lar-47 that uses AK mags and all the feeding issue will just go away... AR mags just do not work reliably with the tapered AK rounds...
 
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