Light .30 cal loads... How Low can you go?

bill c68

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Hey guys, I want to download some .308 and possibly 30-06 for my wife to use for deer and bear hunting (black bears)

I definitely want sub MOA accuracy, preferably 1/2", heavy enough for a clean kill and light enough that my wife will shoot it.

I see you can get .30 cal bullets as light as 110 gn and up to 250.

I am thining in the 120-130 range would be best but open to suggestions.

I also have tons of Varget pwder on hand but don't mind buying something else.

Does anyone have any experience with light .30 cals?
 
Youth data recommends H4895 because it can go as low as %60 of MAX charge. That would be too low for hunting. Try a 150gr round nose soft point designed for a 30-30 and 40gr of H4895 in both guns and work DOWN. You should use a chrony, don't really want much lower than 2000fps. 1" is acceptable, 1/2" is likely going to be difficult.
 
If you can get an honest 1/2 moa with a hunting rifle at any velocity I want to buy it from you. ;)

110 - 130 grain 30 calibre bullets are for varmints.

I would go with a 150 grain SP @ about 2500 fps. That would slightly above 30-30 performance and will be good on deer and bear out to about 125 - 150 yards. Recoil should be mild. 37 grains of H322 or 39 grains of Benchmark in a 308 will give you ~2500 fps.
 
If you can get an honest 1/2 moa with a hunting rifle at any velocity I want to buy it from you. ;)

If I do my part, My Tikka T3 in 22-250 will get 1/4" with factory Bulk Winchester ammo, my handloads only give me about 3/4"

I have done a few 3/8" groups with my Tikka T3 7mm-08 but my last few trips out would only give me about 1" at best.
 
Youth data recommends H4895 because it can go as low as %60 of MAX charge. That would be too low for hunting. Try a 150gr round nose soft point designed for a 30-30 and 40gr of H4895 in both guns and work DOWN. You should use a chrony, don't really want much lower than 2000fps. 1" is acceptable, 1/2" is likely going to be difficult.

Why soft nose? better expansion or something?
 
My std. accuracy load in the .308 is 187gr. cast-gas check bullet with 19.5 gr. of 4759, very mild and very accurate. This powder is meant for accurate reduced loads as is AA5744.
 
.308 lots of gun for both deer and black bear.I use H4895 and hornady 165sst

or get a rifle that doesn't rust when left in sal####er, weighs three pounds, turns in .25" groups with Wal Mart ammo, shoots flat to 800 yards, recoils like a .22LR and will take down a moose. Oh, and it ought to look really pretty, too.
 
Here's an article that'll be of great interest to you. There's plenty of powders available that will alow you to achieve your goals. FInd someone with a copy of Lyman's cast bullet reloading manual. That's a great start.

You can pretty much swap jacketed bullets for cast lead ones providing your not on the low end of the recommended powder charge weight. Afterall, you don't want to get a jacketed bullet stuck in the barrel! That shouldn't be an issue for you in this situation as you're not trying for subsonic velocities.

"The Load" is 13 Grains of Red Dot"

By C.E. Harris, Revised Sept. 27, 2007

My success in economizing by using up leftovers of misc. shotshell powder changed my approach to handloading. About 15 years ago I was given an 8 lb. caddy of Red Dot from the estate of the late Vincent Marino, a fellow gun club member who was an active trap and skeet shooter. I no longer reloaded shotshells, so asked myself, "what can I do with it?"

At the time my shooting was now mostly NRA-style high-power rifle, but using cast bullets in WWII militaries. I was working at the time with a Winchester M1917 Enfield and a Smith-Corona M1903A3, both .30-'06s, and I also had a Long Branch No.4 MkII* in .303 and a Finnish M28/30 in 7.62x54R. I needed several hundred rounds a week to practice offhand, reloading, and working the bolt in sitting and prone rapid, but didn't want to burn out my barrel or my wallet. Powder used to be cheap, but then was $15/lb. (and is closer to $25 today!)or more), so cost is a factor in component choice.

I used to ignore pistol or shotgun powders in reduced rifle loads for the usual reasons: the risk of accidental double-charges, fears of erratic ignition, and concerns with maintaining accuracy, and reduced utility with a low-power load.

Still, the caddy of Red Dot kept "looking at me" from the corner. Would it work? Looking at data in the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual No. 1 and the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook suggested it would, so I tried it, much to my delight!

Red Dot is bulky compared to the usual rifle powders used in .30-'06-size cases. It occupies more powder space in typical charges than common "reduced load" rifle powders, such as #2400, IMR4227, IMR4198 or RL-7. The lower bulk density of Red Dot adequately addressed my safety concerns because it makes an accidental double charge far less likely.

After considerable experimentation, my friends and I found "The Load" of choice in most .30 and .303 calibers was 13 grains of Hercules Red Dot. We found this a good starting point in any FULL SIZED rifle case of .30 cal. or larger. "The Load" has distinct advantages over more expensive alternatives, within certain limitations, which are:

1. The case must be LARGER than the .30-40 Krag, and have a normal working pressure greater than 40,000 psi. The No. 4 Enfield in .303 Brit is OK, the 1896 Krag is not!

2. The rifle must be of MODERN (post 1898 design, suitable for smokeless powder, with a bore size of .30 cal. or larger.

3. The bullet weight must be within the NORMAL range for the given cartridge.

4. Inert fillers such as Dacron, kapok or are NOT RECOMMENDED! (Nor are they necessary).

Within these restrictions now engraved in stone, "The Load" works! The bullet may be either jacketed or cast. Gaschecked cast bullets required in the .30 cals., otherwise you will get leading, but plainbased ones work fine in the 8mm Mauser or larger.

"The Load" has shown complete success in the .303 British, 7.65 Argentine in the '98 actions (not the 1891 please), .308 Win., 7.62x54R Russian, .30-'06, 8x57 and .45-70 (strong-actioned rifles such as the 1886 Winchester or 1895 Marlin -- 12 grs. is maximum for 400 gr. bullets in the Trapdoor Springfield.

Since the article originally appeared I have heard from people who successfully used it in the 8mm Mauser, .35 Whelen, .375 H&H, .444 Marlin and .458 Winchester.

"The Load" fills 50% or more of a .308 Win or .30-'06 case. The risk of an accidental double charge is greatly reduced, because the blunder is immediately obvious if you visually check, powder fill on EVERY CASE, as you should whenever handloading! A bulky powder measures more uniformly, because normal variation in the measured volume represents a smaller percentage of the charge weight.

Red Dot's granulation is somewhat less coarse than other flake powders of similar burning rate, such as 700-X, which aids metering. Its porous, uncoated flakes are easily ignited with standard primers. So-called "magnum" primers do no harm in cases larger than the .30-'06, but are neither necessary nor recommended in smaller ones.

I DO NOT recommend pistol primers in reduced rifle loads, because weak primers may cause erratic ignition, and their thinner cups can perforate more easily, causing gas leakage and risk of personal injury!

The velocities obtained with 13 grs. of Red Dot appear mild, but "The Load" is no pipsqueak! In a case like the .308 or .30-'06, you get (from a 24" sporter
barrel) about 1450 f.p.s. with a 200- gr. cast bullet, 1500 with a 170-gr., or 1600 with a 150-gr. cast load.

"The Load" is fully comparable to "yesterday's deer rifle", the .32-40, and provides good expansion of cheap, soft alloys (10-13 BHN) at woods ranges. Jacketed bullet velocities with "The Load" are about 120-150 f.p.s. less than a lubricated lead bullet of the same weight. Longer-barreled military rifles pick up a few feet per second. My preferred alloy in the .30 cals. is a mixture of 5 lbs. of backstop scrap to 1 lb. of salvaged linotype. Wheelweights also work well, as do soft "Scheutzen" alloys such as 1:20 tin/lead. in medium bores over .30 cal. and larger. "The Load" drives soft-cast .30-cal. to 8 mm bullets fast enough to get a nice mushroom, without fragmenting.

These cast loads out-penetrate factory .30-30 softpoints, and kill medium game up to 150 lbs. well at short ranges up to 100 yards, when placed accurately. In medium and large bores like the .375 H&H or .45-70, "The Load" gives typical black powder ballistics for the bore. A 255-265 gr. cast bullet in the .375 H&H approximates the .38-55 at 1330 f.p.s. Soft 300- 405-gr. cast bullets are pushed at 1300-1350 f.p.s. from a 22" barrel .45-70, sporter are very effective on deer at woods ranges. Cast bullets over .35 cal. do not have to expand appreciably to work well on game if blunt and heavy for their caliber.

The Load" works equally well with jacketed bullets, and is a good way to shoot up those old pulled military ball bullets you have lying around. Jacketed bullets give somewhat lower velocities than with cast lead, due to less effective obturation and greater friction in the bore. I have use pulled GI .30 caliber Ball, and Match bullets with "The Load" for cheap 200-yd. NMC boltgun practice. Accuracy is equal to arsenal loads, but I use my 600-yard sight dope at 200 yards. I expect 5-6" ten-shot, iron-sight groups at 200 yards using M2 or M80 pulled bullets and about 3-4" for the M72 or M118 Match bullets. I use these mostly in bolt-action rifles, but they can be single-loaded for offhand or slow-fire practice in the Garand as well.

These .30 cal. pulls shoot fine in the .303 British or 7.62x54 Russian, despite their being a bit small, because the fast-burning Red Dot upsets them into the deeper grooves. The 173-gr. Match .30 cal. boattail bullets may not shoot as well at these low velocities as lighter flat bases in the 12" twist .308 Win. barrels, but they do quite well in ten- inch twist barrels such as in the '06, 7.62 Russian, .303 British and 7.65 Argentine.

The longer bore time of these 1400 f.p.s. (typical 170-180-gr. jacketed load velocity) practice loads makes errors in follow- through apparent, a great practice and training aid. The light recoil and lower report of these loads helps transition Junior tyro shooters from the .22 rimfire to the service rifle without being intimidated by the noise and recoil.

Zeroing is no problem in the M1 or M14, because "The Load" shoots into the ten-ring of the reduced SR target at 200 yards from your M1 or M14 rifle at using your normal 600 yard sight dope! The somewhat greater wind deflection blows you into the "8" ring at 200 yards with the same conditions you would expect to do so at 600 yards with M118 Match ammunition. This provides your Junior shooters some useful wind-doping practice.

The economy of a lighter charge is obvious. A full power .30-'06 load using 50 grs. of an IMR powder like 4064 today in 2007 costs 15 cents a pop, just for powder, at 140 rounds per pound (if you are lucky enough to still find new powder at $21/lb.) By substituting 13 grs. of Red Dot you get 538 rounds per pound at a realistic cost of 4-1/2 cents assuming you pay $25 per pound at retail. Greater savings are possible if you get the best price and buy powder by the caddy. It is still possible to get an 8 lb. caddy of Red Dot for around $100 if you shop around. Or just become an old vulture and hang around waiting for an old trap shooter to die and do his widow a favor!

Velocity and point of impact of "The Load" is not noticeably affected by varying powder position in the case. I shoot them either slow fire, or clip-fed and flipped through rapid-fire in the boltgun with equal accuracy. Red Dot is very clean burning and is economical both on the basis of its lower charge weight, and its lower basic cost per pound compared to other "rifle" powders. If you substitute a stiffly jacketed 110-gr. .30 Carbine softpoint bullet, which is designed for somewhat higher velocities than imparted by "The Load", you have a non-destructive "coup de gras", small game or wild turkey load which shoots close to your deer rifle's normal zero, but at 25 yards!

Best of all, using a shotshell powder I already have reduces the kinds of powder I keep and eliminates the need for a special "reduced load" powder. This approach is ideal for rifle shooters who are also shotgunners, since almost everybody who reloads for 12-ga. probably has a keg of Red Dot already!

I now realize it is foolish to use heavier charges of more expensive powder for routine practice, varmint or small game loads in my center-fire rifles. I seldom shoot at over 200 yards, and don't enjoy wearing out expensive target barrels unnecessarily. Since I already have good sight dope and need to work more on technique and save my remaining barrel accuracy life for matches.

I am glad I found the way to get alot more shooting for the dollar. Economical powder choice IS possible, and my reloading has become less complicated and more enjoyable simple since I realized I could do most of my rifle shooting with 13 grains of Red Dot!
 
I too am working on some really slow loads. However I need to get some cast bullets before continuing. With my Marlin 30-30 8 grains of Bluedot at 25 yards = 2" group and 7 grains Bluedot resulted in 2 of 4 rounds getting stuck in the barrel with jacketed 170 grain bullets. There is some "risk" involved with reloading in the fringe areas with unrecommended powder/cartridge combos so educate yourself before attempting.
 
Quote from TACKATTACK:

or get a rifle that doesn't rust when left in sal####er, weighs three pounds, turns in .25" groups with Wal Mart ammo, shoots flat to 800 yards, recoils like a .22LR and will take down a moose. Oh, and it ought to look really pretty, too

Hey man, you're talking about my rifle! Now you blew my cover and I can't keep it a secret any longer.
 
I think we are getting off track here. Certainly .30 caliber loads can safely be reduced to 1200 fps (probably as slow as we should contemplate) but for use on big game animals with a .30 caliber cartridge more velocity is in order.

In a .303, .308 or .30/06, a 180 gr psp loaded to 2400 fps produces about 17 ft/lbs of recoil in a 6.5 pound rifle. If the rifle fits, has a good pad, has the scope mounted far enough forward, and if she gets in some regular practice, she will not be bothered by the recoil or blast. This load has a reasonable expectation of killing a deer or bear with a single shot from any angle out to about 250 yards. Beyond that range, velocity drops below the point where reliable expansion can be expected. If you believe this is too much for her, you would be better served getting her a 6.5X55 than you would be trying to make the .30 caliber loads any lighter.
 
I would actually prefer to go with a lighter bullet rather than a lighter charge, for trajectory reasons obviously.
Now having said that I do have a Ton of Red Dot that will likely never be used, so maybe some lower velocities might be in order.
 
Reduced in .308

Have accurate reduced loads for this caliber from about 1000 fps to 2450 fps useing various powders.

For deer hunting with light recoil ...44.2 gr. Imr3031 shot in Rem 788.. 18.5 inch brl. 2780 fps useing a 110 gr. Hornady spire point.. 4 shots/ 0.85 inch/100 yds.
Two deer killed with this load at about 100 yds and 160 yds. Most know that what some describe as .308 "varmint bullets only".. do not blow-up on impact with deer at " reduced" velocities.
For those that disagree..have taken 11 deer in the 1980's with a Mini 14 .223 useing 55 gr. Hornady SX (super explosive) at 2950 fps...all broadside ..100 yds and under and with no bullet failures.

150 gr.Hornady Spz flat base and 40.0 gr Imr3031 at 2450 fps avg also shot under an inch at 100 yds/3shots..about 30/30 velocities.

Many of my reduced loads will shot 1/2 inch groups and less... at 50-75 yds but not at 100 ..and if you find one let us know....
 
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