Light short 12 gauge? Best outdoor hiking defense
- Thread starter aaron.b.hahn
- Start date
- Location
- Halifax, NS
Lol, yeah somethimes I forget myself
stoop14 I have to disagree. I carried a PGO Mav88 quite a bit and got very good using the bead. There isnt much out there for 12 ga. pumps that weighs less so you barely notice it and it doesnt get heavy very fast in your hands. Practise makes perfect
how does a stock affect a shotguns accuracy? Its all in how you hold it. Its not like youre shooting long range offhand, youre putting a nearly 3/4" diameter slug in an animal that weights anywhere from 200 to 800lbs at close range. point and shoot
Edit.
never mind....
- Location
- Niagara Region, Ontario. For now
Have you ever fired a 3 inch slug with a pistol grip?
Raise the gun up to your eye so you can sight down the barrel and see how that works for ya. If you dont knock yourself out you still have to worry about getting another shot off.
I can get a decent first shot off not too bad, but a follow up shot is not even close to as easy to get off, and racking a pump shotgun with a pistol grip at eye level while trying to retain a sight picture is not nearly as easy!
how many times must I explain this... Ive already stated that Ive fired 3" mags with a PGO and yes it hurts with bare hands. padded gloves help alot as the only pain is in the palm of your hand. and yes I was sighting down the barrel and yes I hit my target and no I didnt smack myself in the face with it. again, dont use youtube videos to learn form and technique. hold it out infront of you, your arms are alot stronger extended than bent. this lets you spread the recoil across both arms making it surprisingly controllable. I speak from experience, I went through the learning curve and stuck with it to figure it out. just because you havent figured it out doesnt mean somebody else hasnt. Its a unique skill that takes time to learn, and when you do you will realize how handy a PGO shotgun can be, especially up close where you can maneuver very quickly. no one said it was easy
Not to add fuel to the fire, but I also just saw this... Although my first thought was for a decent side or top folding stock with shell holders...
$600 though...
Like this, but preferably a folder... (the FabArms folder looks weak)
$600 though...
Like this, but preferably a folder... (the FabArms folder looks weak)
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manbearpig
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Somewhere in the Third World
both of these shotguns are pretty much as short as it gets in Canada.
top is an 18" 870P barreled Wingmaster with a PG.
bottom is an 8.5" DA Grizzly with a shortened LOP Speedfeed stock.
(the PG from my DA Grizzly was just installed for this photo, that gun normally has a full stock installed.)
personally, i would much rather sacrifice some barrel length than a stock. there is a night and day difference between how a shotgun with a full stock and a PGO shotgun handles. with the latter, with lots of practice you may someday achieve some semblance of accuracy -- but the fact of the matter is that all that practice is focused on overcoming a massive self-imposed handicap (the pistol grip).
also, much of the DA Grizzly's weight comes from the factory Chinese stock - its much beefier/heavier than a typical 870 buttstock. by swapping it out for the Speedfeed, my Grizzly is much closer to the weight of a similar 870 Express. the Wingmasters always feel lighter to me for some reason - whether this is an actual weight difference due to better machining inside and out, or just a perceived difference because they feel sleeker than an Express, who knows....
- Location
- Niagara Region, Ontario. For now
You are telling someone who is asking for opinions on which shotgun to buy to go with a pistol grip! Since he already doesnt own it we have to assume he has little or no experience with 3 inch slugs and a pistol grip. So there is no way I or any other person should be suggesting one to the OP for bear defense. You would be putting him in a bad spot.
Even with all the practice in the world it is follow up shots that are gonna suffer and accuracy as well with a pistol grip. Without the stock in your shoulder for stability the gun moves seperately from your body, and with no cheek weld seperately from your head. Maintaining a sight picture is near impossible and you have to find the sights evey time.
I have no doubt that with practice you can shoot well with a pistol grip. I have one and it is real handy. If it came down to dfending my life against a bear however there would be no way in hell Id be using a pistol grip. I want every advantage I can get in such a situation and the full stock is such an advantage.
Take a look at some tactical shotgun courses or 3 gun matches. Not too many pistol grips used in these situations and many instructors critisize them for the reasons I have given.
If you want to risk your life go for it but to suggest to the op that it is a better option than a full stock is irresponsible. IMHO
I'm not telling him to buy anything, someone started calling down pistol grips and I defended them knowing what can be done with one. He asked for lightweight and compact. He didnt ask what the better option was, or what works best in 3 gun matches. I bought mine as PGO and got good with it with less than 50 rds. of ammo so saying someone else cant is calling someone else incompetent. I can do it, so can you. Do I prefer my Benelli? Hell yeah! Do I throw $1600 worth of high end gun and accessory on a quad and hit the mud pits? No! I pack it when I can but some situations are better served by a PGO for me. The OP is free to choose whatever he wants, I offered my opinion based on what he asked.
Benelli M2 tactical has ghost ring sights and weighs in at 6.7 lbs. Not a shabby choice.
Pistol gripped shotguns like the Mossberg JIC takes a lot of practice to get used to and accurate recovery shots are slower IMO. You hold them differently so a lot of time at the range would be needed to get the muscle memory right. I'm not a fan of pumps for high stress situations for the same reason. A well maintained auto would be my first choice.
Having said all that, I can understand a serious hiker wanting a Dominion Arms Outlaw or Backpacker but I can't see running slugs or anything serious through them if bear defense is the priority. Total win if you're a highwayman.
Pistol gripped shotguns like the Mossberg JIC takes a lot of practice to get used to and accurate recovery shots are slower IMO. You hold them differently so a lot of time at the range would be needed to get the muscle memory right. I'm not a fan of pumps for high stress situations for the same reason. A well maintained auto would be my first choice.
Having said all that, I can understand a serious hiker wanting a Dominion Arms Outlaw or Backpacker but I can't see running slugs or anything serious through them if bear defense is the priority. Total win if you're a highwayman.
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I think from an emtionless viewpoint it would be a rare person with expert skills that could accurately place 12 gauge slugs from a PGO shotgun at anything past even 10 yards. Certainly during the Vietnam War some Navy SEALs utilized a PGO shotgun in jungle engagements, but the difference there was, they only used buckshot on smaller framed asian persons. Not a fair comparison.
I'm not saying it's impossible, but IMHO to put a slug into the button point of a critter moving towards oneself at a rapid pace would be quite a feat of marksmanship indeed. Improbable feat most likely with the PGO shotgun.
I think with the PGO shotgun you would be very lucky to get off one slug shot to where you wanted it, due to the difficulty of doing so. This would negate the possibility of follow shot, (because lack of time and close self defence distances) so sorely needed, laying idle in the magazine tube. With a full stock one could probably engage the charging beast a little further out, with at least one follow up shot, aiming it like a .73 calibre rifle.
Edit: A workable compromise could be a good folding stock. (assuming you have time to extend it)
I'm not saying it's impossible, but IMHO to put a slug into the button point of a critter moving towards oneself at a rapid pace would be quite a feat of marksmanship indeed. Improbable feat most likely with the PGO shotgun.
I think with the PGO shotgun you would be very lucky to get off one slug shot to where you wanted it, due to the difficulty of doing so. This would negate the possibility of follow shot, (because lack of time and close self defence distances) so sorely needed, laying idle in the magazine tube. With a full stock one could probably engage the charging beast a little further out, with at least one follow up shot, aiming it like a .73 calibre rifle.
Edit: A workable compromise could be a good folding stock. (assuming you have time to extend it)
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