lighting conditions on stages... opening can.. worms clawling out

omen

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All this talk about low light stages prompted me to actually sit back and think about this... I've spoken to a fair number of other shooters who expressed their opinions, and funny enough, they were all fairly negative... Well, this is what I think, from my point of view.

Your eye can keep only so much "in focus"; when you're focusing on something up close, things in the back will get fuzzy and out of focus. The depth in which things are in focus, around what you're looking at, is called the depth of focus. Everyone's is different, but there are some universal constants: the wider the eye's lens/pupil is open, the shorter that depth is. I.e. in low light situations, the depth of focus shirks drastically (because you eye has to open up a lot). Those who are used to focusing on the front sight and seeing the targets fuzzy will find the targets now virtually shapeless, melting into the background.
This effect is greatly magnified for people with shortsigntness; no, it doesn't have to be extreme, almost-blind vision problem, anyone with any level of glasses will experience an amplification of this problem because the loss of far-distance focusing ability is lost almost immediately, with any level of vision problems - so the background is already out of focus, even without taking any lighting conditions into account.
To the point where I, for example, when shooting something 15m away in very dark settings, by focusing on the sights, cannot see the target. Period. The target is INVISIBLE to me against the black/dark background. How the heck am I supposed to shoot at something I cannot see?

Now, I've shot low light stages, like the one in Montreal, where they provided a flashlight - great, I have no problem with that. If you want to make it so that there's a way for those with glasses/etc to see beyond their abilities, with extra light, great. But putting small partials, surrounded by PTs, at a distance, in darkness, where you can barely see the targets and most certainly cannot call your shots, has nothing to do with shooting ability. What does it test? draw? target transition? shooting on the move? setups and takeoffs? Accuracy? nonsense - it tests how well you can see in darkness, and that is not a skill which you can practice or learn, it's random genetics. If you want to decide a stage on a flip of a coin, it would be no different...

Now, there's an extension of this... Low light is bad enough. When you introduce rapidly changing light situations, from total darkness to flashing/strobing lights, for a sizeable percentage of the people, it makes it impossible to see anything. This has all the problems of the above situation PLUS it forces the eye to be constantly opening/closing, and depending on how quickly or well that happens, you can be totally blind! in low light, chances are you can at least see your sights! With those strobing or flashing lights, I couldn't even keep the front sight in focus!

I have a feeling that these stages were designed by people who simply don't have those problems, so to them they were just neat additions to a normal stage of fire. Sort of like color based stuff - pick a card, and based on the color under it, you shoot a different set of targets. That's great, except for people who are, even slightly, color blind! But for a person with a normal color vision, they wouldn't even think about this. And then, when pointed out, the natural reaction is not to say "ohh, ok, right, I didn't think about it, let's change it," it's to get defensive, and attack the person making the comment ("well, too bad, you can take 20% off and shoot without it, do you expect stages designed to your ability?").

You know what, though? That's not a bad idea... All those low light/strobing/etc stages, they aren't speed shoots, the light conditions require a slow down. Next time I see one I will totally take the 20% penalty, and shoot with the lights on. And I'll encourage anyone with glasses or any vision problems to do the same, and quite legitimately so. So, we're talking about a stage where what? 15-20% of the shooters will be taking the penalty because their eyes aren't compatible with the stage design... That should be a good hint that your stage design might leave something to be desired, even if you think it's cool and neat. This is no different than having a wall which you cannot shoot over if you're under 5'8"; sure, most shooters will be fine, but what are you going to do with the rest? Tell them "take 20% off"? People cannot control their eye sight anymore than they can control their height, and it's just as inappropriate to ignore those differences, in stage design.

You want to have low light? Fine, shut off all the lights, give people plenty of time to adjust to darkness, and give them a flashlight.
You want strobing and/or flashing lights on your stage? Get ready for lots of people taking 20% off, totally screwing up the stage results. I will have no problem with taking my 20%, and will feel it is a perfectly legitimate and perfectly justifiable move: if my I cannot SEE the targets because the lighting conditions throw my eyes into a tailspin, how can I shoot at them!??!? And don't give me the "ohhh, it's the same for everyone" crap. Sure, it's the same for everyone, just like that 5'8" wall is the same for everyone. That ignores the fact that everyone is not the same, in ways which matter, for the purposes of that stage. Just because you can't see the differences in people's eyes' abilities (whereas you can see height differences) that doesn't mean those differences aren't there, and aren't just as significant.
 
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Hmmm

I shot that stage based on memory and did not use the lights at all....

I guess it is all how you look at the problem facing you.


What we really need to do is make all stages static. You know those damned people with long legs just have too much advantage over short legged guys like me.

I can practice all day long and I will never be as fast as they are in running.
Realy it is a genetic fluke that they can run faster than I can.

Damn its like deciding a stage based on a proverbial flip of a coin.
 
1.1.6 Difficulty – IPSC matches present varied degrees of difficulty. No shooting challenge or time limit may be appealed as being prohibitive. This does not apply to non-shooting challenges, which should reasonably allow for differences in competitor's height and physical build.

IMHO being able to see the targets and/or sights is a 'shooting challenge'; nothing more......
 
Purposely misconstruing OMEN's intent is not the least bit helpful TWISI. His concern is as legitimate as the guy's in the wheel chair when confronted with a climbing wall. Some of us, the halt and the lame, shoot for the fun of it and don't give a rats sphincter what the course of fire is as long as we get to make a lot of noise and smoke. Others, like OMEN, take a different view. In order to grow the sport we should strive to accommodate as many as we can.

:D
 
Check out THE PRINCIPALS OF PRATICAL SHOOTING
in particular # 6 which says
"The challenge presented in pratical competition must be realistic.
Courses of fire must follow a practical rational and simulate sensible hypothetical situations in which firearms might reasonably be used"
and what is more realistic than having to shoot in low light or changeing light situations.
If you are ever in a situation where you have to use a firearm in self defence [never in Canada :eek:] chances are it will be at night.
 
Check out THE PRINCIPALS OF PRATICAL SHOOTING
in particular # 6 which says
"The challenge presented in pratical competition must be realistic.
Courses of fire must follow a practical rational and simulate sensible hypothetical situations in which firearms might reasonably be used"
and what is more realistic than having to shoot in low light or changeing light situations.
If you are ever in a situation where you have to use a firearm in self defence [never in Canada :eek:] chances are it will be at night.


realistic, yah sensible hypothetical situations, yah That is why we have all those charge lines and fault lines and paths and pull ropes to lift vision barriers and etc. and etc.

I think friend Quigley says it best: "There is nothing Practical about Practical Shooting... " IPSC, in this day and age, is only game.

:D
 
I actually prefer to think of it as "sport"...but game works too
As soon as you encompass a thing with a set of rules and a prize structure it ceases to be a martial art. It becomes a competition (sport, game, take your pick), which is a totally different mind-set than that which is required for fighting. But lets not open that can just now...again.

We all have different physical attributes and limitations, and different skills and weaknesses, and all of these things can be enhanced through training. In IPSC (as in all sports) we play to our strengths and strive to diminish the effects of our weaknesses, and thereby enhance our ability to be competitive over the largest cross-section of stages. Sensible stage design is supposed to cross-section the various shooting and physical skills so that most people who want to be competitive would have a decent chance of doing well if they so choose (one does have to practice after all).

But placing partial targets covered with no-shoots in the dark where 80 to 90% of the competitors can't see them at all and NONE of them can call their shots is not something that can be trained for. Doing so only randomizes match results, as while one person might get lucky and hit most or even everything, others may empty 20 rounds on a target and miss it entirely, or rack up huge penalty points and zero the stage.

It may be an interesting exercise to mess around with just to see what it would be like to engage targets in the dark. But let's face it; who in their right mind would engage a target in the dark if they can't see it...especially if they have hostages? You would have no idea if you are shooting friend or foe, so the exercise would still be invalid.

Oh, I have my flame suit on now.
 
Strange title - there's no can of worms here? It's a funny thread though.

If you want this handled, contact your S/C. if he feels the MAJORITY of Ontario shooters have eye problems causing them to shoot worse than others in the dark, he'll go to the NEC to ask that it be addressed. (Obviously this is why IPSIK keeps doing well in Open...he's had cat's eye implants...)

The NEC will poll their members and determine if the majority of Canadians have eye problems causing them to not shoot better than Americans in the dark. (And Poor Fatty B will loose that big advantage that has catapulted him to so many national titles :()

Then IPSC Canada will move the rule book stricken all dark stages at the General Assembly, and the World Body will vote based on the fact that some people get an advantage because they can see better in the dark then others.

If they approve it we'll finally handicap Grauffel, Leatham and Sevigny and we'll all be in contention for the World Champion Trophy!!!!

OR

You can go over to the global village and ask Vince Pinto, using the normal method of "Mom said no, so I'll ask Dad.." and he'll handle it. I give you 85% odds of a "No."
 
Again:

"Purposely misconstruing OMEN's intent is not the least bit helpful TWISI. His concern is as legitimate as the guy's in the wheel chair when confronted with a climbing wall."

Feeble attempts at sarcasm do little to promote frank and open discussion
 
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Silly question...but why are we even discussing this?

I could probably list a dozen different scenarios that put certain shooters at a disadvantage for one reason or another...but as long as the challenge is the same for all competitors (ie, not random)...there's really nothing to discuss. It's part of the game.

If something silly makes it's way into the stages designs at a Level 2 or higher match...it will be addressed during santioning.

I don't hear much comlaining from the big portly guys...or people with bad knees if they have to run to the target positions...or climb stairs...or???

I don't hear much complaining from the near or far sighted shooters that have to engage close or far targets..or change focus from far to near...

I know plenty of very out spoken shooters with bad backs (some have been known to smoke a cigar or two) that never complain about low ports, they just solve the stage a different way.

This is hardly a can of worms...it's hardy a can of anything.

There is a shooting sport where no one is ever put at a disadvantage for any reason...it's called Bullseye.

This sport however, is dynamic...and you take the good with the bad...concentrate on what you're good at...survive the stages that play on your weaknesses (whether they be eye sight, mobility, problem solving skills etc)

This is so last year...;)
 
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Again:

"Purposely misconstruing OMEN's intent

you seem pretty sure what Omen's intent is...

I'm pretty sure too...and I bet my reasons differ from yours :cool:

Could be we're both wrong :confused:

IMHO...labling this thread "can of worms" takes away from the credibility, but does shed some light on the intent. That doesn't really say "constructive" to me
 
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I usually agree with Omen on these things, but here I'll disagree (sorry bud). Flashing lights, deep darkness with partials, those are all things that are possible for people to experience in a practical setting, and are legitimate in my view. Now I know "Practical" left IPSC shortly after it was invented, but the rules still mention it.
as for taking shots in the dark at partials, yes in real life it would be dumb, but it's also possible it might be required. Thankfully this is just a sport and the worst thing that's going to happen is you get some penalties.
so now it's my turn for a vent about stages, how about MDs that purposely design a match to have targets being harder for Production and Standard shooters who use black sights, then for people with optics. Think black plates on top of black railway ties, with black railway ties behind them, in the shade most of the shooting day. yeah that was nice, and a constant at that match. One day I am going to figure out the exact color of most dots, and then paint all my steel that color and have steel barriers all around them painted the same color. "screw you Open guys!" hahahahahaha
 
One day I am going to figure out the exact color of most dots, and then paint all my steel that color and have steel barriers all around them painted the same color. "screw you Open guys!" hahahahahaha
You'll need to find a way to make them glow too. Fluorescent orange maybe???
 
His concern is as legitimate as the guy's in the wheel chair when confronted with a climbing wall."

Then deal with it at the match, and put your $$ down if you want to arbitrate in front of your peers.. Don't ##### and whine like a spoiled child.. (Oops.. did I say that out loud..)
 
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