Load Development without groups

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Gianni 2507

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Hey Nutz!

Edit: I know about Reloading Manuals and where to find the Starting points and Max charges, I'm using the Hornady Manual and the Hodgdon Website to look up powder charges. I was more asking for anecdotal Info from people that shot that bullet with that same powder and what charge weight worked well for them

I am fairly new to the Gunworld and brandnew to the Reloading world, trying to figure out how to find my way into this without blowing my wallet or head apart lol.

Trying to figure out how to go about working up my first load for my gun I read lots about OCW or Ladder tests but have found one common problem, most if not all of those methods rely at least in part on groups or group sizes and accurate shooting.

Being relatively new to the Sport I don't believe that my shooting is consistent enough to "read" groups or strings on paper at 2-300 yards. Meaning that my Groups on paper at 200 range from 2" on a good day to 4"+ on not so good days.

Basically my Main question is: Is looking at MV through a Chronograph a way to determine a "good enough" starting load? I have access to a Chronograph which I trust more than my groups, so I figured I will try to load up a known or recommended and proven save charge and see if the MV is fairly consistent over 3-5 shots?

Secondary Question would be about that recommended Charge for this Caliber-Powder-Bullet Combo

Shooting a 6.5 CM 143 ELD-X Bullet

IMR 4350 Powder + CCI Large Rifle Primers

Hornady Brass

Out of a Tikka T3x Roughtech with a 24" barrel

Can't find a lot of Info on the IMR Powder, most of the recommendations where for the Hodgdon H4350 which I couldn't find close to me.

I tried the Search bar and Google but am overwhelmed with all the Information, hoping that a thread will streamline it a bit!

Thanks and safe shooting!
 
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IMG_1778.pngI think your approach, given limitations is good. Use the Chrony to determine best load. Always stay within published loads and confirm safe velocities too.
There is lots of discussion on the validity of ladder tests and test loads even amongst the most proficient shooters. It seams that things can change day to day.

For load data, go right to the source…read various manuals for general reloading information and load. Don’t use “internet” loads unless you can verify them in a published reloading manual, or online manual from a manufacturer.

Does your chrony data line up to published velocity at load? Velocity normally tracks with pressure. When you start getting close to max velocity, you are also probably also close to max pressure.

Load up in increments and watch for pressure sighs on your brass, primers and gun (bolt lift). Stop at, or before, max published velocity or load.
Good luck!

https://hodgdonreloading.com
 
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OP, H4350 burns just slightly faster than IMR4350, depending on the lot.

H4350 starting loads will be just slightly higher than starting loads with IMR4350, but in your rifle, with the components you list, that starting load will be just fine in your very strong Tikka T3 Roughtec.

If it's possible, which is often isn't, list your location, and ask a knowledgeable CGNer to "mentor" you through the reloading process.

There are a lot of good folks on this site who would step up to the plate to help.

There are all sorts of newbie mistakes that can be alleviated and even dodged with a good mentor.

If you have a way of checking your velocities, the closer your velocity spreads are, usually the bullet will group well, when you figure out the sweet spot. Wide velocity spreads, say over 25 feet per second, will usually not give you good groups at any distance.

I would suggest you do your initial tests closer, say 100yds or less, to determine if the load will group, before going for distance.

IMR was taken over by Hogdon a few years ago, and many powders are no longer available.

My Lyman #51 manual suggests starting loads for both IMR4350 and H4350, using your 147ELD bullets, with standard primers, Hornady brass, from a 24 inch barrel.

IMR4350- Start 34.5 grains - velocity 2344 fps - pressure 49,700psi ---- maximum- 38.5 grains - velocity - 2589 fps - pressure - 63,900psi

H4350 - Start 35.0 grains - velocity 2334 fps - pressure 49,400psi ---- maximum- 39.0 grains - velocity - 2563 fps - pressure - 60,000psi

As you can see, there is almost no difference between the burn rates.

In this "particular" case, load tables are pretty much interchangeable, but caution should be used to start with a half grain less, if only one type of these powders is listed in your manuals.

One thing to be aware of, when you change anything, such as types of primers, new cases, and sometimes even different lots of the same designated powder, all such things are not created equal, and slight changes may need to be made to find the sweet spot again.

Another thing I'm going to warn you about, chasing "accuracy" is addictive and can become quite expensive, as you're likely finding out.
 
Buy a reloading manual and memorize the first hundred pages.
The people that tune on paper with seating depth and powder charge adjustments shoot smaller than those who rely on Es, Sd, OCW because they understand how to maintain POA until the bullet leaves the barrel. Which means either a flat bottom stock that tracks in the bags like it's riding on the bed of a lathe or a really tight two handed hold with the other hand holding the fore end to help minimize movement away from intended POA after the trigger breaks.
Learning to dry fire with zero reticle movement is step one. Learning keep your eye open during live fire to spot reticle movement before bullet exit is step two. It's common for an experienced shooter to tune a load in a couple dozen rounds with seating depth and powder charge adjustments when the POA doesn't change.
I had GoBalistic chamber a barrel I shot with the same load for four years before I was consistent enough to bother trying seating depth and powder charge changes. Then another two to catch up to how small a tuned custom barrel will shoot.
I have five reloading manuals, it's a good way to see through cartridge and powder favouritism. Speer is my favourite for new reloaders and has the best print quality, memorize the first hundred pages. Nosler has load data and Sierra has their entire manual, including the crucial first hundred pages under "RELOADING" free online.
A Tikka will likely shoot 1moa straight out the manual no questions asked. Everything outside 1moa will be shooter error.
There's more crap available to read than you can shake a stick at. Uboob is worthless. I subbed to 351 channels that are all junk but one. MDT and Phillip Velayo have turned a CGN post of mine from last May(take the bolt out to bore sight) into pro shooter prs videos. Banned from commenting on their mistakes yet plagiarized me. They have teams that scour the forums, nothing original.
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Unlike rimfire, consistent muzzle velocity does aid in accuracy! Especially at longer ranges. Many factors affect accuracy including action bedding,free floating barrel and as mentioned barrel temp. Your trigger is also a factor as is good shooting techniques. The thing with groups off the bench is Consistency. Dry fire where you trigger breaks and the sight or crosshairs stay on the target after the break. When you learn to breathe properly and can follow thru on the shot your groups will drastically shrink. Have fun
 
struff55 said:
the complete point of reloading is accuracy every thing else is secondary
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Perhaps for you, but not for everybody. I also reload to save money and make ammo customized to my purposes along with wanting better accuracy. For me the ability to load to the purpose is more important in a number of calibres than absolute accuracy.

Longstud said:
Unlike rimfire, consistent muzzle velocity does aid in accuracy! Especially at longer ranges.
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This is true, but you need to go quite a ways out before velocity starts playing a significant part. Unless it's really bad you won't see anything before 300yds at least, IME. Assuming OP is not trying for world beating BR numbers or such.


Mark
 
OkayShooter said:
Muzzle velocity isn't a indication of group size. Many factors to consider after the bullet leaves the muzzle.

Try slowing down shooting. Hunting rifle barrels, ain't meant to shoot long strings. They heatup too fast. Unless you get a barrel cooler.
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Muzzle velocity does influence group size "if it isn't consistent."

Velocities with more than 25fps spreads will quite often have a negative effect on accuracy, and it shows up very quickly.

That statement isn't written in stone, and it depends a lot on what the individual describes as "good accuracy."

Consistent velocities help dampen varying barrel harmonics, which in turn tighten up groups within the velocity node it prefers.

However, every barrel will have different issues with harmonics and will settle down at a different node.

Finding the velocity a barrel will shoot best is a velocity with consistently repeatable harmonics.
 
bearhunter said:
Muzzle velocity does influence group size "if it isn't consistent."

Velocities with more than 25fps spreads will quite often have a negative effect on accuracy, and it shows up very quickly.

That statement isn't written in stone, and it depends a lot on what the individual describes as "good accuracy."

Consistent velocities help dampen varying barrel harmonics, which in turn tighten up groups within the velocity node it prefers.

However, every barrel will have different issues with harmonics and will settle down at a different node.

Finding the velocity a barrel will shoot best is a velocity with consistently repeatable harmonics.
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Guess I edited over what I was going to say. While MV does show the constancy of your reloading. It's no guarantee that it will group well.
 
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todbartell said:
Load halfway between start charge and max charge, work on your shooting and then worry about tuning a load to improve precision down the road
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That could work; might as well learn to walk before you run. Alternates could be taking Noslers most accurate powder and Sierras accuracy load under advisement. Or as Richard Lee said, most shooting can be done with starting loads and he freely admitted that most new reloaders should buy factory loads for their annual hunting trip.

Or do a Kirby Allen and find lands, find pressure and velocity and load ten. Use those to see if you have a load or not. Or in his case whether he’s going to ship the gun.
 
Thanks for all the replies everyone!

I should have mentioned in my initial post that I do know where to find the start max and min charges, I am using the Hornady reloading manual and looked up the powder charges on the hodgdon website as well.

What I meant with can't find a lot of info is what charge people had good luck with in between the min and max charges.

For example if you look up the hodgdon H4350 with the 143 ELDX on the internet there's lots of anecdotal evidence that 40.3 to 40.5gr is what works for a lot of people. But since less people are using the IMR stuff there's less anecdotal evidence.

I appreciate all the info given, obviously my first goal is to get lots of practice, and good practice at that. The only reason that I am even reloading is to cut down on the cost for ammo, since I only had to buy dies and bullets/powder, I can use the equipment of a friend. that way I can get my bullets to about 2.50 a pop instead of the 5 when buying the factory ammo!
 
struff55 said:
reloading manuals will give you all the info you need read it from front to back and then read it again
the complete point of reloading is accuracy every thing else is secondary
all load development is done at 100 yds
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My point for reloading is getting more ammo for my money than what I pay for factory. Being able to get lots of good practice in to improve my shooting fundamentals and accuracy
 
todbartell said:
Load halfway between start charge and max charge, work on your shooting and then worry about tuning a load to improve precision down the road
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That is exactly what I am going to try. Only that instead of start halfway between min and max I thought maybe someone uses the same bullet/powder combo and could give me a charge that worked well for them that I could try working up to safely
 
My rifles are for hunting or basic plinking. So take this for what it is.. Just my modus operandi...
I take a bullet I want to shoot then look at the powder choices for barrel length and twist I have. Choose one powder then load a quick ladder of five to ten. min to max. shoot em with a chrono and study the cases for pressure. But I'm always looking for the highest fps for bullet performance on game. Very different than target rounds. Take what I learned from that then load a few three shot rounds looking for basic grouping and tight ES. When reloading... consistency is the key... Cheers and always have fun..
 
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