Load recipes for hard cast 405 gr with IMR 3031 for 45-70

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S1nnerman

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Hey guys, I need loads for my hunting trip in September (moose).

here's my setup....

Rifle : Marlin 1895 GBL
Powder : IMR 3031
Primers : Fed 215
Brass : New Starline 45-70
Bullets : Bullet Barn 405 gr hard cast (0.459) without gas check

I would like the get between 1500 and 1600 fps out the muzzle. I will not shot pass 200 yards.

Please don't suggest any other powder cause it took me 2 months just to find that one. Same goes for the primers and brass. It is so upsetting to not be able to get what we need in Canada. I couldn't even find 405 gr factory Remington bullets anywhere within our beautiful country :(

Thanks in advance boys, always appreciated.

Cheers
Mario
 
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Hodgdon data site (verified, published data) is showing 45.5 to 48.5 for IMR3031 with a 405gr cast bullet with velocities of ~1600fps to ~1700fps.

Starline brass is great. Primer brand wont matter too much in this case so long as you keep it consistent during load development.
Personally I use H4198 for most of my 45-70 reloading so I can't comment from experience :(
 
Why do you believe 3031 not suitable for a 405gr? Is it too fast? 4198 is also very popular for 45-70 loading and it's even faster than 3031. 3031 is a very popular powder for 45-70 reloading and I hear very few if any bad things about it.
Varget is much slower so is likely better at the higher pressure/velocity loads but the velocity range S1nnerman mentioned is in the level 1/trap door range for most data I know of.
 
Not mine but a friend that I cast some 405gr for.

50 meters and imr 3031 as in pic, looks ok.

SAM_3931_zpsuukngm1o.jpg
 
1500fps is a common velocity limit for plain base cast bullets but it can vary quite a bit. I've gone as high as I think 1700fps without leading because the bullet, alloy, barrel, and powder just worked well together. I also have other rifles that experience terrible leading above 1000fps (mostly due to pitted, rough bores). It's a trial-and-error process mostly to determine exactly what your velocity limit is.

I don't know how easy it would be to PC Bullet Barn bullets since they're prelubed. You want clean, oil-free bullets, sometimes degreased with acetone, if you want the PC to stick well. Even if you melted the lube off the BB bullets there would likely be a residue. Maybe you can order unlubed, as-cast bullets from them? f55 and myself cast our own so we can PC what we cast ourselves (I mostly just do it for 44 mag in a rifle with a problematic leading problem).

Another option is to paper patch bullets which I do for 45-70 (my current avatar is a 400gr, paper patched bullet in a 45-70 with 65gr of FFg Goex black powder under it). That's a whole other thing though as you also need undersized bullets as the patch takes up some room (I ordered a custom mold that drops .450" to .451" and I patch up to .460" or so).
 
Try what you have before pc, you may be surprised.

Start lower and work up, its not going to hurt to try.

If you do want to pc, put the bullets in a sauce pan with water and boil to remove the lube and clean. I did this and pc was fine, although i did this with 44mag not 45-70.
 
ok, I'll do some testing first. I will start with 36 gr and work my way up (0.5 gr increments) and I will chronograph it all and see what I get.

Since I'll be hunting very early in September (we are the first group), the forest will still be pretty thick and the chances of shooting pass 100 yards are pretty slim. So I guess if I can at least achieve a muzzle velocity of 1400 It should be plenty.

thanks again everyone
 
You have an excellent combination--400/405 weight bullet in the 45-70 and 3031 powder.
I had the 22 inch model 1895 some years ago and did a lot of experimenting with many different powders and different loads.
The August, 2007 issue of Handloader magazine has a tremendous article on the Marlin 1895, with groups of loads giving not over 21,000 CUP, up to loads giving not over 43,500 CUP, with many different weights of bullets. They tested, including chronographing, every load. Thus, what they say is very accurate.
What you are looking for, a 405 grain bullet at 1500/1600 fps, with 3031 is as follows.
It comes in the loads that do not exceed 35,000 CUP, chronographed in the 22 inch Marlin and they were even using Star Line brass!
48 grains of 3031 gave a 405 grain bullet a velocity of 1551 fps.

I got tired of the heavy kicking loads I made up, so I sold the Marlin a few years ago. Now, I had the chance to get an as new Marlin 1895 with 22 inch barrel, made in 1974, just two years after they put the first one on the market, and I couldn't refuse.
I have vowed to keep the recoil down, so I have been working up a mild load that is accurate.
40 grains of 3031 with a 420 bullet made a hair over 1,200 fps, but seemed too light.
42 grains was better, but could be a bit more, so I loaded up a bunch at 42.5 grains of 3031, getting about 1400 fps, the standard factory load for the 45-70, suitable for Springfield Trapdoor's. I am even using Star Line brass. And by the way, that will go clear through a moose.
 
LUTNIT said:
Why do you believe 3031 not suitable for a 405gr? Is it too fast? 4198 is also very popular for 45-70 loading and it's even faster than 3031. 3031 is a very popular powder for 45-70 reloading and I hear very few if any bad things about it.
Varget is much slower so is likely better at the higher pressure/velocity loads but the velocity range S1nnerman mentioned is in the level 1/trap door range for most data I know of.
Click to expand...

Well, I guess it's more complex than the circumstances quoted above. All info is about a marlin guide gun. First off, as I paper patch and keep a full tube when shooting, I'm a believer in full case loads so that there is no chance of a bullet sliding back into the case... That can cause 'unwanted' results... Second, I found 3031 with full case loads to be too stiff. It was cracking the action of the gun halfways open on every shot... Third, it was much harder recoiling at normal levels in my opinion by the time I had a load that would shoot to the sights than a slower powder such as 4064 did... Fourth, it left a lot of unburned powder in the barrel. For some reason, the powders in the range of 4064 to varget didn't have that problem... It wasn't as bad as 7828 where it left a third of a case of unburned powder... No, I"m not joking...
 
I have used a lot of Bullet Barn product in probably a couple dozen different guns and have never had a leading problem with them. That doesn't mean much in the .459 stuff as most of it is shot at 1400 fps or less, however I do shoot a 30-30 and a 32-20 bullet from them regularly at over 1700 fps and have not ever had leading residue.
 
Like LUTNIT says, 45.5 to 48.5 for IMR3031 with a 405gr cast bullet is a TrapDoor load from Hodgdon's site that'll do nicely out of a lever. It is Max loads run at the 1700ish though. Mind you, cast bullet TrapDoor loads won't bother a Marlin.
Powder coating is just paint.
 
ok guys here are the first results

I tested 50 bullets ranging from 36 grs to 40.5 grs. My most accurate load was with 38.5 grs with a velocity average (5 bullets) of 1295 fps. Accuracy was half an inch at 50 yards. My worst load was with 37 grs having an average speed of 1214 fps. All other loads were within an inch and a half.

Could you experienced hardcast reloaders tell me what you think of those 2 pics showing the inside of my barrel. Should I worry about ''leading''. I did shoot 50 bullets though !?

Also, should I go even further and get more speed. This is for my moose hunting trip in September.

thanks again guys

~20150803_145413_HDR.jpg
 

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S1nnerman said:
I tested 50 bullets ranging from 36 grs to 40.5 grs. My most accurate load was with 38.5 grs with a velocity average (5 bullets) of 1295 fps. Accuracy was half an inch at 50 yards. My worst load was with 37 grs having an average speed of 1214 fps. All other loads were within an inch and a half.

Could you experienced hardcast reloaders tell me what you think of those 2 pics showing the inside of my barrel. Should I worry about ''leading''. I did shoot 50 bullets though !?
Click to expand...
Those pictures look like mostly normal dirt. Have you cleaned the barrel at all before taking the pics? You want to get the barrel fully clean and then look for leading; it's really difficult to spot if there is carbon and other junk in the bore still.

amosfella said:
Well, I guess it's more complex than the circumstances quoted above. All info is about a marlin guide gun. First off, as I paper patch and keep a full tube when shooting, I'm a believer in full case loads so that there is no chance of a bullet sliding back into the case... That can cause 'unwanted' results... Second, I found 3031 with full case loads to be too stiff. It was cracking the action of the gun halfways open on every shot... Third, it was much harder recoiling at normal levels in my opinion by the time I had a load that would shoot to the sights than a slower powder such as 4064 did... Fourth, it left a lot of unburned powder in the barrel. For some reason, the powders in the range of 4064 to varget didn't have that problem... It wasn't as bad as 7828 where it left a third of a case of unburned powder... No, I"m not joking...
Click to expand...
A case full of 3031 under a 405gr is going to be a pretty stiff load so that makes sense. Having unburnt powder seems odd though. I've used 3031 a little but was using it for lower pressure loads (maybe 2/3 to 3/4 case full; don't remember the exact charge weight) and never had issues with unburnt powder. 7828 leaving a lot of unburnt powder makes sense since it's a very slow magnum powder so would want higher pressures to burn properly (at least a level 3 load if not higher which isn't safe at all in a lever rifle).

Did you chrony any of the loads? Recoil is directly related to energy produced, regardless of pressure produced, so having a load with excessive recoil to get it to hit PoA compared to lower recoil with a different powder sounds really odd. Could have been something weird going on or maybe the rifle just responds differently to the two different powders.

Even with a full case, unless you're running a compressed charge already, the powder will still get compressed if the bullets are set back in the tube under recoil. I only shoot paper patched in single-shot rifles so have never had to deal with PP'ed bullets getting set back under recoil.
 
All the leading problems I've ever had start at the free bore/forcing cone area and it is not noticeable at the bore (as your pics show) so there may be some leading that we can't see in the photo. That being said I have had friends complain about leading in the end of the bore and would contribute that to a Lube (amount of, or type) problem more than speed or bullet fit issue.
 
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