Loading .303 British with blackpowder

[Hi-Standard]

This maybe a silly question, but has anyone tried loading a 303 British with blackpowder lately? I have read that the original charge was over 70 gr. of powder under a 215 gr. bullet, and that it was highly compressed, so a handloader would never be able to achieve the same results. I am not a blackpowder handloader by the way, only smokeless, but I am curious. Would you use standard large rifle primers? And if blackpowder were possible, how about Hodgdon's Triple 7? I was reading that it was about 15 to 20% faster than pyrodex, so you may be able to more closley match the original ballistics.

 

[ben hunchak]

There are a few issues with BP in the .303....the fouling must be cleaned out of the cases, the barrel, and the action after use...this is nothing new but is timeconsuming with the bolt action, using BP with Jacketed bullets doesn't leave you with many options for using a BP lubricant to keep fouling soft, you can use a newspaper or card wad w/lube cookie...a cast bullet w/BP lube would be preferrable....otherwise use a 30" or longer drop tube and 3fg just leaving enough room for the bullet, no empty space!

 

[TimC]

With the origianal loads in Black powder, the factory case prior to filling was a sraight ish tube with a rim, the shoulder was formed by crimping the case neck in a press after the black powder pellet was linserted. This I believe was already primed. As my old mate would say "Rather you than me!"
I suspect that this was another reason to keep Berdan priming as who would be able to load sufficient powder to get the right velocity. The pellet was a preformed rod of black powder compressed already. The necking down of the case must have put considerable risk on the process.

 

[Hi-Standard]

There are a few issues with BP in the .303....the fouling must be cleaned out of the cases, the barrel, and the action after use...this is nothing new but is timeconsuming with the bolt action, using BP with Jacketed bullets doesn't leave you with many options for using a BP lubricant to keep fouling soft, you can use a newspaper or card wad w/lube cookie...a cast bullet w/BP lube would be preferrable....otherwise use a 30" or longer drop tube and 3fg just leaving enough room for the bullet, no empty space!

I cast my own bullets and lube them with Lee liquid alox Ben, would that solve one of the issues? What would the drop tube be I'm just learning about blackpowder.

 

[jeepingpw]

The drop tube (a long brass tube with a funnel on top) aids in compressing the black powder. I would use caution in compressing a load.
You could use a black powder substitute to cut down the foaling & corrosion.
I have loaded non-compressed BP in my Win 94's in, 30-30 , .45 Colt & .44 Mag as well as my 12ga (don't use plastic wads they melt in the bbl, only fiber wads), & 45/70 Sharps.

I used Wonder lube wads in my 12ga.
For my rifles & pistols I also used Wonder lube on the cast bullets. I used paper milk carten wads over the powder to reduce the risk on lube getting on the powder.

 

[green]

Original BP .303" ctg used no lube. Saw a handloader nearly duplicate service load (65vs70gr BP IIRC) with hole in centre of heavily compressed charge. Load gave about 1750fps with Norma 215gr SP and shot well. Lee Metford test rifle developed headspace between 100-200 rounds. BP .303" load was not a low pressure round developing 19 tons psi versus 16 tons for the MkII-VI cordite and 19.5 tons for the MkVII.

 

[ben hunchak]

To see the effects of a drop tube...pour enough black powder to completely fill your case.....then slowly pour it into another like case down a 30" or longer drop tube.....you will see that you have gained 1/4" or more of case capacity and powder will burn better...you will notice a crack instead of a boom when firing. I don't know about the lube you are using....you do not want to use a lube with any petroleum product in it.....In BP loading the lube used on bullets serves to functions...lube the bullet and more importantly keep the fouling soft so that the following shot will help clean the bore....a blow tube helps even more....this allows one to keep shooting (accurately) without cleaning the chamber/barrel between shots.....If this is not done you will quickly reach the point where you can't even chamber a round. A proper BP lube, used properly....will not build hard fouling in the barrel...this hard fouling will cause the bullet to ride over it causing great inaccuracy. Best to use a proper BP Lube like SPG or Chambers'.

 

[John Sukey]

The only reason the British used the Berdan primer was because of sloppy tolerances in the first cases, leading to the boxer primer backing out.

I think it's really funny that Europeans use an American priming system while Americans use the British system.

 

[TimC]

But with no need to recycle the brass beyond scrap (something which still goes on now!), there is no incentive to improve on thepriming system.

 

[Hi-Standard]

I don't really intend to shoot BP all the time, unless it really gets fun . I just wanted to turn a few heads at the range when I squeeze off a round in my 1917 BSA and that big plume of smoke rises from the muzzle. So I take it that Lee liquid alox is not recommended? And I hear BP is measured by volume and not weight is that also correct? What would a good charge be for a jacketed 174 gr. spitzer be? I'd just like to put a few thumpers down range at say 1500 to 1600 fps. I wouldn't want to overpressure my gun. How about a Ross Mk.III, the shallow rifling may foul less than Enfield rifling. By the way, thanks to all of those who have responded so far, your input has been invaluable to a BP newbie!

 

[GrantR]

Hi-Standard:

I also would like to try black powder (or, perhaps more accurately, BP-type) .303 loads - though I gather that many who have tried it have met with little success.

The problems may relate to a number of factors - e.g. inability to approach the performance of the original highly-compressed charge, or trying to use them in Enfield-rifled bores, which after all were designed specifically for the cordite loading. Perhaps trying them in a Metford-rifled barrel would help - if a decent one could be found.

The problem definitely isn't the rate of twist, which was 1 turn in 10" right from the outset in 1888. I think people may tend to forget that the original bullet, even with the first black powder loads, was a cupro-nickel jacketed bullet, because of that fast rate of twist. So, if using cast bullets, I think one would want to stay with a very hard alloy - straight wheelweight, for example, or even pure linotype if available.

I too think that using Triple 7, especially in the finest grade, might help to get the velocity up at least approaching the original specs. I do have some, in both 3F and 2F grade - and have used the latter for some loads in .455 Webley, .577 Snider and .577/.450 Martini-Henry. It is also an attraction that Triple 7 works best with smokeless-type lubes - in fact I understand that it will foul excessively (forming a "crud ring" ahead of the chamber) if used with soft BP-type lubes.

Anyway, this is definitely on my "wanna do" list - tough how real life (work, family, etc.) keep getting in the way of such projects, eh? I have a mould which was recommended to me, casting a .314" gascheck roundnose bullet. (Lyman 314299 - "Weight (#2 Alloy) 200 gr. - Mould # 2660299 - Top Punch Number 467 - Top Punch Part Number 2786743 - Designed for the 303 British for 200 to 600 yards. A scaled up version of the 311299. Excellent accuracy." This is a quote of the brief blurb on the Lyman website) I hope that cast in hard alloy, and with the gascheck, it should perform fairly well with higher velocity loads - I am told that it also works quite well without the gascheck, in milder loads.

And I definitely know which rifle I want to try such loads in - a very nice LSA Magazine Lee-Enfield MkI* (commercial production, set up as a target rifle, and engraved on the buttplate with the original owner's info: "C.V. Samuel, Toronto Canada")
which I purchased on the trader board right here on CGN. You may have seen the pictures of it which I have proudly posted (just a time or two ) here on CGN and elsewhere, but I never tire of "sharing it" so here they are again ...

 

[ben hunchak]

Nice rifle!!!! A few tips on loading BP......you always measure black powder by weight in cartridges if you want good accuracy......Starting out, start with an empty case and seat your cast bullet way out, try it in gun, you want it to chamber and kiss the rifling(show rifling marks on bullet) keep seating bullet deeper until you arrive at this OAL......with a similar cast bullet measure the amount of bullet in the case with a vernier caliper..the length you measure will also reflect on the part sticking out on the bottom of the vernier...this is now your depth gauge...the powder/wad/cookie should come up to that depth....next you throw weighed charges with wad on top until you find the right amount that leaves no empty space when bullet is seated, remember to throw all charges down 30"+ drop tube!!