I think i might start loading my own black powder shotgun shells. I think they are 2 & 1/2" 12 gauge. What do I need? I already load a bunch of old cartridges, but have never loaded shotgun shells. Can I get away without buying a special press and dies? I'm thinking of using the brass shells if I can get them in that short size.
Loading BP shogun shells
- Thread starter Win 38-55
- Start date
The Magtech brass shotgun shells are 2-1/2" in length. If you plan on using them in a single or a double, you won't need any special tools. Just some felt wads, overshot cards, and something the seal in the overshot card (any time I've loaded them I've used waterglass). I use a small piece of wood dowel to make sure everything's packed down tight too.
You would be ill advised to meter the black powder because you get fine powder around the drum portion of the powder thrower and that leads to rust over time (for me anyway) It is convenient to be able to make a star crimp to seal the shell and a cheap loader is awfully handy for that. I use 2 3/4 plastic cases in my guns because they are thin enough that I don't believe there is a significant pressure increase in the forcing cone area. I have used brass cases but they are a bit of a nuisance because you have to glue in the top wad, somehow. I am also under the impression that a card wad on top of the cushion wad, improves patterns by not imbedding pellets in the cushion wad. I have been using muzzle loading pre lubed wads for the cushion wads. For 12guage I am using 80 gr of 2F plus 1 1/8 oz of shot and as a general rule of thumb, use an equal measure (volume) of shot to powder.
cheers mooncoon
cheers mooncoon
Yep, that's the way to go.
I loaded a bunch of BP shells using the old Lee Loader and a mallet. If you are handy, you could make everything you need to load brass cases.
Okay, I was just reading on the web and some fellows are yelling big warnings against using brass shotgun shells in a double barrelled shotgun. They say that the second shell might not contain its heavy shot load during the recoil of the first shell, resulting in a bulged barrel.
So it looks like I should use maybe paper or plastic. Which is better and easier for black powder? Can I star crimp plastic? Where would I get 2 & 1/2" plastic or paper shot shell casings?
So it looks like I should use maybe paper or plastic. Which is better and easier for black powder? Can I star crimp plastic? Where would I get 2 & 1/2" plastic or paper shot shell casings?
Use plastic cases and cut them down, the brass cases are too voluminous and require careful cleaning and tumbling after use. BP and Prec. Reloading sell a shell cutter but I made my own which uses a blade from exacto(or some such) to cut down to 2 1/2", they also sell the drill/drill press attachment to make perfect roll crimps in your cutdown loads. None of this stuff is expensive and you should consider getting a 12 ga. punch to make wads of dif. materials and thicknesses so that you can build a wad column for the right height inside case and allow a proper roll crimp, and the roll crimp is period correct, although the plastic cases aren't. In the old days the used paper cases and a hand turned crank tool to make the roll crimp, as well as horsehair wads.
vagrantviking
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- High River, Alberta
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_silicate
I bought a litre at a pottery supply place and will be set for the next 50 years. Candle wax and even white glue I find shrinks too much and pulls away from the inside of the cases.
There is the chance of load seperation using a double but I think that it is very slight with well made shells. Even if the over shot card were to move say 1/2 inch (but I doubt that it would move 1/8) the load would not be seperated unless you were pointing the gun straight down. They have been shooting double muzzleloaders for several hundred years and they would suffer even more than a cartridge from the same effect because you are not going to load and then wait 24 hours for some sort of glue to dry in the barrel even if you found a way to get it all the way down on the over shot card.
People spend too much time thinking up stupid things to worry about.
Whoa!!!
Candle wax as a sealant would only work if it is a very thin wafer or placed over a card over shot wad, not melted wax of course. I remember a guy in our club poured melted wax into the mouth of his shot shells and could not figure out how come he could not hit a any clay birds. We did a pattern test at a monthly BP shoot and he discovered his shot column was a single projectile with a couple of loose pellets...the wax bound the shot together in one lump. Melted wax along the edge of a n over shot wad would work well if you can't roll crimp the brass case.
I used to reload 12 ga. black powder years ago on a Lee Load All. It took a bit of practice and adjustments to get the right powder charge combination. A few hints are in order here.
Never use plastic wads...they have a tendency to melt and leave plastic deposits in the bore. Plastic shot cups are OK. The wad to use is a a fiber wad, preferably about 1/2 thick...if you go any thicker it reduces your powder and shot charge.
Stick with paper shot shells...they are more reliable to crimp, and stay crimped, and will not melt either. Luckily I had access to tons of paper 12 ga shells...they were trap loads that guys were throwing away...they worked awesome though only would last three to five loadings. The paper shells can also be cut down to 2 1/2 if required...I was using the 2 3/4 paper shells in a early 1893 Winchester Pump gun...which had a short chamber.
The old saying, when using a muzzle-loading shotgun, is to use same volume of shot and powder, to get the best performance. I tried that in cartridges and it worked pretty good...I cannot recall the exact amount, but something like 80 to 90 gr. FFg with same volume of shot sticks in my mind.
Cheers
BTW...I think I may have a bunch of those paper shells still...If you are interested I can see what I got on hand here.
Candle wax as a sealant would only work if it is a very thin wafer or placed over a card over shot wad, not melted wax of course. I remember a guy in our club poured melted wax into the mouth of his shot shells and could not figure out how come he could not hit a any clay birds. We did a pattern test at a monthly BP shoot and he discovered his shot column was a single projectile with a couple of loose pellets...the wax bound the shot together in one lump. Melted wax along the edge of a n over shot wad would work well if you can't roll crimp the brass case.
I used to reload 12 ga. black powder years ago on a Lee Load All. It took a bit of practice and adjustments to get the right powder charge combination. A few hints are in order here.
Never use plastic wads...they have a tendency to melt and leave plastic deposits in the bore. Plastic shot cups are OK. The wad to use is a a fiber wad, preferably about 1/2 thick...if you go any thicker it reduces your powder and shot charge.
Stick with paper shot shells...they are more reliable to crimp, and stay crimped, and will not melt either. Luckily I had access to tons of paper 12 ga shells...they were trap loads that guys were throwing away...they worked awesome though only would last three to five loadings. The paper shells can also be cut down to 2 1/2 if required...I was using the 2 3/4 paper shells in a early 1893 Winchester Pump gun...which had a short chamber.
The old saying, when using a muzzle-loading shotgun, is to use same volume of shot and powder, to get the best performance. I tried that in cartridges and it worked pretty good...I cannot recall the exact amount, but something like 80 to 90 gr. FFg with same volume of shot sticks in my mind.
Cheers
BTW...I think I may have a bunch of those paper shells still...If you are interested I can see what I got on hand here.
Yeah... I have the same question. this is what I've found on Encyclopedia Brittanica... but I'm still confused, lol!
So, is it actually glass or just a name for it? I'm not too sure about having tiny glass shards flying loose inside the bore, lol!
I have used a Lee load all for years the powder can't be measured in there powder bushings but you can drop the shot and do all your crimping if it won't crimp low enough for the 2.5 just cut the main square tube a little shorter . I use 90grs. FF a 1/4 thick card board wad and 1.25 oz shot the use 20 gauge over shot cards to take up any space to just adjust for crimp.
What about melted bullet Lube?
The kind that looks like Blue Rubber its Quite hard to but you can melt it and pour it to.
Someone here gave me that idea years ago for home made Shot capsuls for the antique Revolvers.
Im gona build some knida 14 Ga Shotgun and am gona use Brass shells so i was thinking that blue bullet lube melted over the Card wad then theses brass 14 Ga shells would work in any type of shotgun eh ?
The kind that looks like Blue Rubber its Quite hard to but you can melt it and pour it to.
Someone here gave me that idea years ago for home made Shot capsuls for the antique Revolvers.
Im gona build some knida 14 Ga Shotgun and am gona use Brass shells so i was thinking that blue bullet lube melted over the Card wad then theses brass 14 Ga shells would work in any type of shotgun eh ?
vagrantviking
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- High River, Alberta
I have had some success with using bullet lube to seal it all up but it can be pretty temperature sensitive. Too cold and the lube shrinks and comes loose - too warm and if gets too soft to stay in place. If you find the right formula for the conditions it should work pretty well. Definitely use a tight fitting card over the shot before pouring any kind of glue or wax over it.
Soaking the fibre wads in melted bullet lube helps to reduce the fouling quite a bit too.
Alonzo brings up a good point about using plastic with BP. One piece wad-shotcups make a huge mess but I have heard of people using just the shot cups over a fibre wad for better patterns. Even the plastic hulls themselves will often have small holes burnt in the sides. Sometimes almost 50%. Better quality hulls and and high brass seem to reduce the problem some.
Waterglass is not glass but sodium silicate. It comes as a thick syrupy liquid. Hardens overnight into a very tough nearly transparent substance that makes an airtight seal and resists water. The Wikipedia entry lists a big list of different uses over the years.
Soaking the fibre wads in melted bullet lube helps to reduce the fouling quite a bit too.
Alonzo brings up a good point about using plastic with BP. One piece wad-shotcups make a huge mess but I have heard of people using just the shot cups over a fibre wad for better patterns. Even the plastic hulls themselves will often have small holes burnt in the sides. Sometimes almost 50%. Better quality hulls and and high brass seem to reduce the problem some.
Waterglass is not glass but sodium silicate. It comes as a thick syrupy liquid. Hardens overnight into a very tough nearly transparent substance that makes an airtight seal and resists water. The Wikipedia entry lists a big list of different uses over the years.
I would not use paper shells; if they get damp, they swell up and won't fit the chamber. In this case this was just as a grouse was walking down the road in front of me :>(. Excess pressure in a shot shell is when a shell extends into the forcing cone and creates a greater constriction. Plastic shells are only about .010" thick and that translates to relatively little extra constriction if you are using 2 3/4" shells in a 2 5/8" chamber. If the gun has the much less common 2" chambers, you obviously have to trim the shells. Paper shells on the other hand are at least .020" and would have to be trimmed. They also are only good for 2 or 3 shots by which time powder granules are starting to penetrate the paper (in my experience) The plastic shells will have slightly melted areas but you can also get quite a few shots out of them using black powder.
Original brass shells had a partial star crimp; the ones that I have seen had a tapered star much like a half completed one in a modern shell. I doubt that the brass would stand up to many crimps like that. I used LePage's white glue to hold an over shot card wad in place and it stood up to firing the other barrel at least for one or two shots. If it came loose, you definitely could have problems and an alternate solution would be to load the left barrel with plastic shells with star crimps. If your crimps are opening up, I would be suspicious of loading technique. Crimps are fairly sensitive to the internal column being just right.
cheers mooncoon
Original brass shells had a partial star crimp; the ones that I have seen had a tapered star much like a half completed one in a modern shell. I doubt that the brass would stand up to many crimps like that. I used LePage's white glue to hold an over shot card wad in place and it stood up to firing the other barrel at least for one or two shots. If it came loose, you definitely could have problems and an alternate solution would be to load the left barrel with plastic shells with star crimps. If your crimps are opening up, I would be suspicious of loading technique. Crimps are fairly sensitive to the internal column being just right.
cheers mooncoon
