Loading Smokeless Muzzleloaders- let's talk!

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SomebodyTookMyName

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I'm just about finished my first smokeless ML project, and I figured the reloading forum might be the better place to post this over the antiques/blackpowder section.

Mine is built on a Savage 110 action, using a 28" .45 cal Green Mountain SS barrel and Ultimate Savage Muzzleloader conversion kit from Cecil Epp at Precision Rifle Muzzleloading in Manitoba. I'm excited to cook up a laod for it, but there's very little info on load data (I'm guessing for liability reasons) regarding powders, min/max loads, etc.. I'm leaning towards Reloder 7 with CCI 250's and a 310gr PR Bullet Dynamo, but I'm looking for input!

Who else here runs a smokeless smokepole? What kind? What powder and bullet? Sabots or bullet-to-bore?

What accuracy and velocity are you getting? How far have you shot it? Discuss :)
 
I shoot a Savage 10ML-II with a 50 Cal. McGowen barrel. I shoot sabots with N110 powder proving most accurate. 45 cal. is very different and most folks shoot H4198 or IMR4198. Recipe is on target. Can't do this every time but 1" is easy.
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Little update- thanks to sliceman for the link to Doug's message boards for load data.

I started off with 56gr of H4198 pushing a 200gr .40 cal T/C Shockwave in a .45 sabot, which yielded roughly 2 MOA- not bad considering my powder charges weren't the most precise, and the stock needs bedding in a bad way (lots of play in the recoil lug area). I didn't bother to chrony yet, but I will on my next outing.

I had trouble with static in my powder tubes so my charge weights varied probably .3gr or so. I've remedied this by making a bunch of brass powder tubes from cut off .30/06 cases capped with .45 ACP cases :)

I'll post more results as we go! One thing that surprised me was the amount of recoil- holy moly! I'm sore down to my bicep after only ten shots...
 
Cure for static. Take some graphite powder and put it in your charge tubes and give them a shake. Pour the graphite out and viola no more static problems. You can reuse the graphite as much as you want.
 
My experience with the Savages was several 50 cals, all bedded, some 3 screwed. I went down the H4198 rabbit-hole for awhile with bullets knurlled to stop potential spinning in the sabots and sometimes to get a tighter barrel fit. If it ain't tight it ain't right with smokeless. Velocities and recoil were right up in .375 H&H land with Barnes bullets. There were a few too many mystery fliers and some poofs so I backed off for review.

While I was in that stage a few reports of spontaneous disassembly were occurring so I went back to boring old book loads of 4759 and some 250 but mostly 300 grain SSTs with short black MMP sabots and threw any supplied sabots away. They kill like lightning and I've never recovered one yet. My daughter shot a moose with those when she was 13, it exited too.
 
Dogleg said:
My experience with the Savages was several 50 cals, all bedded, some 3 screwed. I went down the H4198 rabbit-hole for awhile with bullets knurlled to stop potential spinning in the sabots and sometimes to get a tighter barrel fit. If it ain't tight it ain't right with smokeless. Velocities and recoil were right up in .375 H&H land with Barnes bullets. There were a few too many mystery fliers and some poofs so I backed off for review.

While I was in that stage a few reports of spontaneous disassembly were occurring so I went back to boring old book loads of 4759 and some 250 but mostly 300 grain SSTs with short black MMP sabots and threw any supplied sabots away. They kill like lightning and I've never recovered one yet. My daughter shot a moose with those when she was 13, it exited too.
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Thanks for sharing Dogleg-I'm hoping that going bullet-to-bore for me is going to alleviate some of the weirdness generally associated with sabot shooting. How did you knurl your bullets?
 
I roll them between two files. One file on the bench; set the bullet on it and the other file on top of that. With firm pressure roll the bullet back and forth about 4”. It doesnt take much, and you can test fit or measure them with a mic. When you have it right, count strokes.
Sabots are definitely the weak link. Cold weather isnt kind and warm barrels are worse. I should give bore size bullets a chance.
 
Update- attempt #1 at making a bullet sizer for my rig was a partial success.

I built myself a simple sizer using a blank die body drilled and honed to size bullets for bullet-to-bore shooting, but I underestimated just how much metal the final lapping would remove... so I got to almost the perfect size with my drill/emery cloth, but by the time I finish-lapped it enough for a smooth ride, I wound up with my sizer right at my desired diameter instead of slightly under. I also didn't realize just how much "spring back" a jacketed bullet would have, so I wound up with a lovely ~.4515" sizer now when I really needed .4500". Definitely too tight to seat bullets by hand.

All is not lost though- I did at least have great success in making some felt wads for the rig! I chucked up a .45 ACP case in my drill and got it spinning fast before pressing it into some felt doorstops from the dollar store! Cheap as heck, and works perfectly- wound up with nice firm consistent wads, just a hair over .45". Also only cost me $3 for well over 100 wads!

I'm gonna try to find another die body here before too long, but I fear I may just wind up shooting sabots for this year yet, unless I can get a new die built up fast.

Alternately, if anyone would be willing to loan/rent/sell me a smaller sizer or adjustable unit, that would be swell too :)
 
Another update for y'all: tried a few more loads last week with saboted 200gr .40 Shockwaves but had zero success- 3-4" groups at 100 yards! wads or no wads, no difference, tried a few different powder charges going up to 60gr of H4198 with zero luck.

Tonight I got out with some Precision Rifle .450" 330gr Dynamos which are pre-sized for my barrel, and loaded them over a mild 48gr of H4198 with a cotton wad. This produced a velocity of 2080 FPS with 1.5" 100 yard groups- not bad! I'm gonna get Cecil to end over some 310's for me to try, as the 330's are really a bit heavy for my liking.

I loaded the buttstock with lead weights to help tame the recoil, but even at 13.5lbs loaded, it's still very noticeable with the heavier loads.
 
hello again, one very important rule when shooting saboted loads is to ALLOW FOR ADEQUATE COOLING TIME BETWEEN SHOTS. I mean up to 15 mins. barrel heat is killer with plastic sabots. That's the number one reason guys are choosing sabotless cuz there is no wait time. No real reason to use a wad with a sabot either save them for when you get you die for full bore projectiles.
So I suggest you revisit 58-60 grs of 4198 either IMR or H and 200 gr .40 cal shockwaves or XTP. and WAIT for the barrel to cool your groups should tighten up. If not just sight in for one shot on a cold bore and go from there.
Your choice of 48 grs of 4198 is too light because that powders burn rate is too slow.
 
The barrel heat and sabots thing is very real and bears repeating. It probably took too long to figure that out for myself; but eventually the light came on. :) If the barrel isn’t cold cold, chances are you’re wasting your time.
 
smokeeter said:
hello again, one very important rule when shooting saboted loads is to ALLOW FOR ADEQUATE COOLING TIME BETWEEN SHOTS. I mean up to 15 mins. barrel heat is killer with plastic sabots. That's the number one reason guys are choosing sabotless cuz there is no wait time. No real reason to use a wad with a sabot either save them for when you get you die for full bore projectiles.
So I suggest you revisit 58-60 grs of 4198 either IMR or H and 200 gr .40 cal shockwaves or XTP. and WAIT for the barrel to cool your groups should tighten up. If not just sight in for one shot on a cold bore and go from there.
Your choice of 48 grs of 4198 is too light because that powders burn rate is too slow.
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Thanks for the input, but I did try that already- while I used 48gr for the 330's, I tried 56, 58, and 60gr with the saboted Shockwaves, and gave 10 minutes cooling per shot, but still no decent accuracy.
 
OK, I'd go with one shot cold barrel sighting and hunt with it from there, the 330's from dead centre how are you sizing them , how's the fit? I personally like 300 gr. range so the 310's would be good , I'd up the charge to 60 grs of 4198 and don't exceed it. Is your savage a large shank or small shank shudda asked that initially. On a small shank I would limit my charge to 60 max.
 
Roger that. Just ordered up a bunch of the 310gr Dynamos- they're sized the same as the 330's, which fit perfectly in the barrel without sizing. When I spoke to Cecil today, he said he specifically sizes the Dynamos to run without sabots in his .45 barrels, which is why he offers multiple sabot thickness options for the .50 guys.

I've got a small shank action on my rig. I'll be working my charge weight up next week when my bullets arrive. Cecil echoed your recommendation of a max charge around 60-62gr, strangely though he claimed he'd never heard of using a wad over the powder... Realistically I'm more concerned about accuracy than speed anyway, so I'll see where they shoot best and stick with it- can always just aim a little higher :)
 
SomebodyTookMyName said:
the 330's are really a bit heavy for my liking.

I loaded the buttstock with lead weights to help tame the recoil, but even at 13.5lbs loaded, it's still very noticeable with the heavier loads.
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I took out my savage with a Brux .45 cal. barrel out for a spin the other day. Just wanted to shake the cobwebs out of it. If you thought the load you were shooting was excessive you're not going to like this load. Mind you its with a large shank savage with 1.20 " at the receiver so I know it'll handle this load. I found that sometimes things need a kick in the A$$ to get things going. It's with some of my modified 300 gr.Hornady .458 bullets that are full formed to the barrel.

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smokeeter said:
I took out my savage with a Brux .45 cal. barrel out for a spin the other day. Just wanted to shake the cobwebs out of it. If you thought the load you were shooting was excessive you're not going to like this load. Mind you its with a large shank savage with 1.25 " at the receiver so I know it'll handle this load. I found that sometimes things need a kick in the A$$ to get things going. It's with some of my modified 300 gr.Hornady .458 bullets that are full formed to the barrel.
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Holy moly smokeeter! Have you chrono'd that load at all? 73gr is a stout load indeed.
 
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